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Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 18:52

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
1. Have had a look at Trump's approach to legal obligations. Maybe instructive, maybe not.
2. Trump sees himself as a master of the "art of the deal". He certainly has an interesting approach to contract law.
3. Classical contract law is about the sanctity of the agreement: the bargain.
4. Classical approach is that all sides agree in advance what to do throughout contract regarding foreseeable risks.
5. This means that a lot of "front end" thought is put into a contract: more time working things advance, fewer problems later.
6. The merit of this approach is that everybody knows where they stand, as and when any foreseeable problem occurs.
7. This is not the approach of Trump, at least as far as his known business record can be discerned.
8. For Trump, the "art of the deal" is not striking the best original bargain, but the later haggling/manouvering once contract begins.
9. The original bargain is just the starting point. The real "deal" comes later. Sometimes this means "stiffing" the counterparty.
10. Sometimes, it may be said, such an approach is good business sense: you can force a "better deal".
11. The problem is that nobody, especially third parties, knows where they are. No reliance can be placed on the original promises.
12. The original exchange of promises were a mere opening position: enough to get him over the threshold.
13. The extent to which this approach is transferable to the fulfillment of election promises is anyone's guess.
14. Perhaps there is nothing in this comparison. But it seemed interesting: how a certain type of businessperson would do politics.
/Ends

Now I've seen this sort of idea flying about today from a number of sources with no connection that I can see.

On the one hand this might be a good thing (suggestion that he will be more liberal than suggested, keeps popping up) but on the other hand the UK keen to make a deal with this shark...

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merrymouse · 09/11/2016 18:55

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/english-rights-trump-temptation/

Nick Cohen - sorry if link already posted.

BoredofBrexit · 09/11/2016 18:56

Jaws I was about to write - bloody hell, we are in agreement, re the considerate/well mannered test - till I got to the end of your post where once again, leavers are assumed to be one big homogenous mass.Sad

Peregrina · 09/11/2016 18:59

whistlinginthewind.org/2016/10/16/how-fascism-takes-over/

This is a good article about how fascism takes over. The site is Irish and it has some other good articles too.

I went to the hairdresser today, and everyone was talking about Trump's victory instead of the usual chit chat about holidays and Christmas shopping, which is absolutely unheard of. DS has just phoned in despair about what the future will hold for him and his family.

On the positive side: thanks Red your threads since the Referendum have been saving my sanity.

BoredofBrexit · 09/11/2016 18:59

Peregrina- you know, in the event of an act of aggression or threat of war, if required we could come to the assistance of our European neighbours, without being part of the EU.

jaws5 · 09/11/2016 18:59

Absolutely not bored, my example is anecdotal as I noticed, but it coincides with the Lse study, that concludes that "authoritarian" people as measured by the child test, tend to vote Leave and Trump.

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 19:29

Jaws I was about to write - bloody hell, we are in agreement, re the considerate/well mannered test - till I got to the end of your post where once again, leavers are assumed to be one big homogenous mass

FWIW it was just about trying to establish if leavers have a more authoritarian leaning. The articles it relate to go on at great length to explain that Leaver/Trumpers cover a wide range and are very different, but have a core value of wanting more ordered 'normal' than liberals.

It was not a slight in anyway but an attempt to try and understand where people are coming from. Its actually an exercise in bridge building rather than labelling or boxing people.

The articles are very good and actually might help everyone stop doing this homogenous group thing.

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RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 19:35

Oh and the spectator article, is spot on.

juliesilverbrook.com/2016/11/09/america-is-bigger-than-a-single-election-lets-commit-ourselves-to-our-constitution-and-civics-education/
This is blog piece appealing to Americans to stick by the constitution.

I’ve said it before, but I will repeat this in brief here –I do not think it is coincidental that Donald Trump’s election to the White Housecoincides with a correspondent and troubling decline in civics education and knowledge.

Which fits very nicely with everything too.

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jaws5 · 09/11/2016 19:37

Can someone decipher this meme (i know someone posted a similar one for deciphering earlier),
"D Trump is a reminder to everyone that you should apply for the job you want even if you don't have the right experience"
On Facebook, is it ironic?

jaws5 · 09/11/2016 19:40

Or "inspirational" ( sorry, I'm puzzled)

twofingerstoGideon · 09/11/2016 19:48

mistigri Why are liberals queueing up to take the blame, in some kind of bizarre auto-flagellation ritual?

It's exactly as it was post-Brexit. It's as if the xenophobe/racist vote is almost too much for 'normal' people to contemplate. Obviously, not everyone who voted for Trump/Brexit is racist, but it's amazing how quickly the result has been spun to imply that this was an 'anti-establishment' vote by people who felt they don't matter/had been left behind. BBC Radio News was spinning this line this evening.

This video from the NY Times shows exactly the type of people who were among his voters. Like Brexit, not everyone who voted for Trump was a racist, but you can bet your life that everyone who's a racist or misogynist voted Trump. Warning - Video contains shocking content.
NY Times video

TheBathroomSink · 09/11/2016 19:52

I suspect whether or not it is ironic will depend on who is posting it, jaws - I've seen it (or a variation of it) posted by a few different people on my FB, and I know at least two of them will see it as inspirational, one's blatantly ironic, one could go either way.

Peregrina · 09/11/2016 20:36

The NY Times video was absolutely appalling. I used to watch 'All Our Yesterdays' when it was on in the lat 1950s. It showed history from 25 years earlier so it showed the Nazi parades of the 1930s. The rabble rousing is exactly the same.

twofingerstoGideon · 09/11/2016 20:44

I thought the most shocking response in that video was the one to Obama's name being mentioned. I'm not even going to write it here, but it chilled me to the bone.

merrymouse · 09/11/2016 20:45

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-us-election-results-latest-popular-vote-electoral-college-a7407826.html%3Famp?client=safari

So Clinton won the popular vote - consoling, but gutting at the same time - particularly for the majority of Anericans who voted for HC!

merrymouse · 09/11/2016 20:47

But just so weird given that the college system was supposed to keep Trump out.

Could this go some way to explaining why the polling was off?

mathanxiety · 09/11/2016 20:48

The role of the Electoral College in all of this is being ignored, and that is a pity.

Clinton won the popular vote. If that was all that mattered, she would be president.

It is a problem when the votes of citizens in some states carry more weight than the votes of citizens in others.

I am in one of those states that offers a big chunk of EC votes. The major metropolitan areas of the state vote Democratic while rural areas vote Republican. The Democratic vote is always more than the Republican vote. No matter what the voting intentions of the rural citizens may be, those of the metropolitan areas are reflected in the EC total for the state.

The same process operates in those states that gave Trump the EC advantage that won him the election. It can cut both ways, in other words. But the Electoral College makes the votes of certain states outweigh the votes of most other states and it makes the votes of certain citizens in those states more important than the votes of others in those states - Democratic voters in Ohio might as well have stayed home. Never mind that Michigan and Alaska and Arizona still haven't declared a winner. Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, Iowa and Wisconsin, along with predictable red states, put Trump ahead in the Electoral College.

Both parties stand to win by dint of the EC so I doubt it will ever be scrapped. But it is a problematic element in the process imo.

mathanxiety · 09/11/2016 20:54

X-posted with a few posters...

This is not why the polling was off.

The polling was off because polling organisations called the wrong people, and many polling organisations conducted online polling and missed people who are not online.

There is a suggestion that mainstream media polling reportage favoured polls that put Clinton ahead. This would be worth an investigation.

The LA Times polling got it right afaik (I may be wrong on this though as it came up in a conversation and not the result of any research of my own). It is owned by the Tribune media group, which is not one of the big players, though big.

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 21:11

I've heard today that the reason the polling was off was because when they were doing it Trump supporters were so fed up and annoyed with the system they effectively rebelled against it by refusing to cooperate with pollsters as they also represented the establishment they dislike. Therefore it created a silent Trump effect, not because they were shy but because they didn't want to be participate and engage with something they disliked so much.

Just seeing there is a large anti-Trump demonstrating in downtown Austin, Texas. Looks peaceful. Young various ethnic groups. Chanting out of your jobs into the streets. Apparently around 150 students. Have blocked a bridge at one point.

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merrymouse · 09/11/2016 21:20

Apparently 46.9% of Americans didn't vote.

This compares to 27.8% in the EU referendum and 33.9% in the 2015 UK general election.

lalalonglegs · 09/11/2016 21:21

math - at some point in the early hours GMT, I am sure I heard one of the BBC experts saying that there was a member of the electoral college in one of the (I think) New England states who had already said she would not endorse Clinton if that state voted for her? Did I imagine that or can that actually happen? Confused

ClashCityRocker · 09/11/2016 21:25

Who do pollsters ask, and how?

Nobodies ever 'polled' me.

No one apart from my mam answers Unknown/withheld numbers, so maybe more of them are done online?

The polls have been (mostly) wrong for the us election, brexit and the last uk election. Some of the polls for brexit were hugely out. I'm sure polls used to be more accurate.

StripeyMonkey1 · 09/11/2016 21:32

Great thread. I am busy reading. Thanks Red and others.

merrymouse · 09/11/2016 21:36

I think comparisons to Brexit don't really stand up with those results.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the result Brexit had high turn out and Leave would have won whether you look at the 'popular vote' or constituency results.

In the US election, by far the biggest proportion of people didn't care or couldn't vote for some reason - what did Farage's 'little people' think? Who knows?

Peregrina · 09/11/2016 21:39

I think our polls were never all that accurate, then in 1970, I think it, was the BBC had the first exit poll done. From what I remember this was in Gravesend and it was chosen as representing the average town. This showed a Conservative win, much to everyone's surprise, because Labour was expected to win. It was the first time I had been able to vote, so I remember it quite well.

Now I think they should probably be banned from about a month before an election.