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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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StripeyMonkey1 · 09/11/2016 16:11

This is a good article from The Guardian.

"Donald Trump has won the presidency – not because of the “white working class”, but because millions of middle-class and educated US citizens reached into their soul and found there, after all its conceits were stripped away, a grinning white supremacist. Plus untapped reserves of misogyny."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/09/globalisation-dead-white-supremacy-trump-neoliberal?CMP=share_btn_link

I agree that racism was a key aspect of the Trump vote, but I don't think we should discount the impact of sexism either. Women historically have been complicit in the subjugation of their own sex. I do think it is telling that Clinton's "pant suit" created so much rage.

Mistigri · 09/11/2016 16:14

*melanin not melatonin (blame American technology)

Peregrina · 09/11/2016 16:16

And this will be at the cost of some sovereignty in renegotiating our defensive relationship I expect.

Losing Sovereignty to EU - a big No, No. Losing it to a Right wing USA, with a mad man in the White House. No Problem.

It would be a big irony if Brexit got suspended because we needed to throw our weight behind the defence of Eastern Europe. What would the 'You lost, suck it up' brigade be saying then?

merrymouse · 09/11/2016 16:22

itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-run-up/id1142083165?mt=2#episodeGuid=gid%3A%2F%2Fart19-episode-locator%2FV0%2FWXJJf8TqG0rKXFgqshCGI7k6EoNygcHQtUUayr-jtpQ

Listening to above New York Times podcast - makes the point that the DT who won was the businessman shown by the Apprentice, not the businessman covered over many years by the New York Times.

I assume that both New York and New Jersey are safe democrat 'seats', so he never had a strong chance of winning there. (Not sure of US lingo)

However, Would everybody in the US have followed the ups and downs of Trump in the same way that we all know about Philip Green?

merrymouse · 09/11/2016 16:26

www.seattletimes.com/opinion/paralysis-or-a-future-of-compromise-heres-what-the-next-president-should-do/

I'm finding this article slightly reassuring in a rather bleak way.

A Clinton win might have held the line for a while, but the battle was always coming.

Peregrina · 09/11/2016 16:40

People question what Trump could do with the codes to the nuclear missiles in his hands. I suspect that if there was any serious danger of him using them, the military top brass would be able to disarm the missiles. Or is that wishful thinking on my behalf?

prettybird · 09/11/2016 16:51

The devil in me wonders if they'll give him the wrong codes by accident Wink

merrymouse · 09/11/2016 16:53

His campaign team didn't seem to trust him with Twitter - I hope and assume somebody is thinking about this.

DH has been watching the entire series of 24. They have some pretty rubbish presidents, but I have kept thinking 'hmm, not as bad as Trump', but then which other republican candidate would have been better? Jeb Bush???? He didn't make it very far.

Can anyone think of a TV president worse than Trump?

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 17:01

blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/trump-and-brexit-why-its-again-not-the-economy-stupid/
Trump and Brexit: why it’s again NOT the economy, stupid

This huge spread reflects the difference between two groups of people giving different answers to a highly innocuous question: ‘Is it more important for a child to be considerate or well-mannered?’ The answers sound almost identical, but social psychologists know that ‘considerate’ taps other-directed emotions while ‘well-mannered’ is about respect for authority.

People’s answer to this question matters for Trump support because it taps into a cultural worldview sometimes known as Right-Wing Authoritarianism (RWA). Rather than RWA, which is a loaded term, I would prefer to characterise this as the difference between those who prefer order and those who seek novelty. Social psychologist Karen Stenner presciently wrote that diversity and difference tends to alarm right-wing authoritarians, who seek order and stability. This, and not class, is what cuts the electoral pie in many western countries these days. Income and material circumstances, as a recent review of research on immigration attitudes suggests, is not especially important for understanding right-wing populism

Now I've read this briefly before, and think its a fascinating idea. It also has a link to further reading with another article which I think is even better:
www.the-american-interest.com/2016/07/10/when-and-why-nationalism-beats-globalism/
It’s not just the spark, it’s the explosive material, and those who dismiss anti-immigrant sentiment as mere racism have missed several important aspects of moral psychology related to the general human need to live in a stable and coherent moral order. Once moral psychology is brought into the story and added on to the economic and authoritarianism explanations, it becomes possible to offer some advice for reducing the intensity of the recent wave of conflicts.

and

Each country has followed a unique trajectory, but if we zoom out far enough some general trends emerge from the WVS data. Countries seem to move in two directions, along two axes: first, as they industrialize, they move away from “traditional values” in which religion, ritual, and deference to authorities are important, and toward “secular rational” values that are more open to change, progress, and social engineering based on rational considerations. Second, as they grow wealthier and more citizens move into the service sector, nations move away from “survival values” emphasizing the economic and physical security found in one’s family, tribe, and other parochial groups, toward “self-expression” or “emancipative values” that emphasize individual rights and protections—not just for oneself, but as a matter of principle, for everyone.

It goes on

Nationalists see patriotism as a virtue; they think their country and its culture are unique and worth preserving. This is a real moral commitment, not a pose to cover up racist bigotry. Some nationalists do believe that their country is better than all others, and some nationalisms are plainly illiberal and overtly racist. But as many defenders of patriotism have pointed out, you love your spouse because she or he is yours, not because you think your spouse is superior to all others. Nationalists feel a bond with their country, and they believe that this bond imposes moral obligations both ways: Citizens have a duty to love and serve their country, and governments are duty bound to protect their own people. Governments should place their citizens interests above the interests of people in other countries.

There is nothing necessarily racist or base about this arrangement or social contract. Having a shared sense of identity, norms, and history generally promotes trust. Having no such shared sense leads to the condition that the sociologist Émile Durkheim described as “anomie” or normlessness.

It also carries an ominous warning in there. Which I do share.

If the theory is correct, (and it seems to make sense) would definitely explain why liberals and liberal values are also regarded as 'the enemy', why there is a gap between generations and why the Human Rights Act and control of our courts is just so important to Brexit.

I'm not sure I share all the pessimism though.

The important here to me is, you can Brexit, but you sure as hell are not going to change the beliefs of the young in what they value. Not easily. Nor what they will want to teach to their children unless you make some pretty big changes to education. Which will be resisted for obvious reasons.

So if all this is true, then you would expect at some point in the future, in the UK for there to be another backlash. Maybe not so in the US because of geography and religion - the two things that really make the UK so very different to our English speaking relatives. The UK is too small, too sectular and education is still more valued and will be continued to be, than in the US to not have a continuation of the importance of these values. Its a question of riding it out for a generation... The US such values are rather more entrenched in religion and minorities being ghettoised much more outside urban areas.

Definitely worth reading both in full.

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birdybirdywoofwoof · 09/11/2016 17:05

That looks like a brilliant analysis red

BestIsWest · 09/11/2016 17:07

That is one tiny light in the darkness Red, the beliefs of the young. Gives me hope.

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 17:10

We have to protect education and we have to make sure liberal values are not ridden rough shot and destroyed.

We are going to have a rocky ride though for a number of years though.

A very rough ride.

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LurkingHusband · 09/11/2016 17:15

Or ...

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.”

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 17:17

I guess we are at dependence back into bondage then.

Joy.

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Peregrina · 09/11/2016 17:34

I thought the average age of Empires (world's greatest civilisations) was more like 400 years, but I agree in essence. British Empire? Maybe 300 years. Spanish - 400? Roman? 500.

Peregrina · 09/11/2016 17:39

Reading another thread where someone's Mother is gloating about Trump planning to ban abortion, knowing that her daughter had one, it did make me question how much of the US religious right have been responsible for putting Trump in? This would also explain the female votes.

We do have the same fundamentalists in this country, but they are nothing like as vociferous. Nor is abortion such a big issue here.

merrymouse · 09/11/2016 17:42

At least after Brexit some of the more ghastly MPs had their come uppance, UKIP have become pretty much a farce and Farage is loud but without official power.

Brexit is still very real, probably permanent and has already affected people's lives, but it isn't led by somebody quite as awful as Trump.

I feel so much sympathy for the Americans who won't be able to avoid him.

jaws5 · 09/11/2016 17:53

Red that study by the LSE is fascinating, thank you!

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 18:01

The theory would even explain why Leave voters are so much more likely to be people who support the death penalty than Remain voters.

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prettybird · 09/11/2016 18:07

I think empires are different to democracies - I don't think that India would say that the British Empire was particularly democratic. Nor the conquered countries of the Roman Empire. Hmm

ClashCityRocker · 09/11/2016 18:23

In my personal world, it was reassuring that a lot of the leave voters I spoke to today were shocked and concerned about trump's victory today.

It was a timely reminder that leavers aren't a homogenous mass and concern about levels of immigration (regardless of the concern being misinformed) are a far cry from wanting to build a wall to keep'em out.

I sometimes go on certain threads on here and get quite perturbed with the views and attitudes being spouted by some of the more rabid leavers. It's not even about what they think best anymore, it's about what's more likely to get up the nose of those 'shrill, lefty liberals'. I think it's Important to remember not all leavers, or I suspect the majority of them, think like that.

LurkingHusband · 09/11/2016 18:32

I thought the average age of Empires (world's greatest civilisations) was more like 400 years, but I agree in essence. British Empire? Maybe 300 years. Spanish - 400? Roman? 500.

Pax Romana 27BC-180AD

Pax Brittanica 1815-1914
Pax Americana 1945-?

I don't think there was a Pax Hispania, or Pax Iberia (?)

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 18:34

www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/extreme-views-are-becoming-the-mainstream-in-britain-and-eur?utm_term=.am090X3w5#.qbAWDgzVR
Revealed: Nearly Half The Adults In Britain And Europe Hold ExtremistViews

(From this article you would effect France on course for a Brexit effect at elections next year. German is absoluetely not. Italy is borderline for its referendum - will depend on turnout)

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jaws5 · 09/11/2016 18:46

So interesting: I asked my children and partner the "well-behaved vs considerate child" question and each was clear that "considerate" wins. I would have thought it's obvious, it's only after reading the LSE blog that I realise how others would answer differently, I suppose we all live in social bubbles. But I do know families where "manners" are given a lot of importance over self expression and real consideration for others, now I think about it, and I'm sure they voted Leave (one I know for sure, the other I guess)

Peregrina · 09/11/2016 18:48

Farage being without official power is worse, because he can't be reined in.
Trump will be gone in 4 years, thank God. I don't think he will do another turn.

Wonder if Michelle Obama would have a stab at running for President? To my mind she has been a very positive role model for women and especially black ones.