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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 13:42

I don't think it is, but I think that's what Frank thinks.

Sanders didn't have a bat's chance in hell but Frank bills him as 'inspiring and scandal-free', stating either of them 'would have beaten Trump'. Not even could but 'would'.

Fair point.

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Mistigri · 09/11/2016 13:43

It's fair to say that HRC wasn't the best candidate ever.

But she was standing against the least qualified candidate ever - a man who sexually assaults women, who openly courts the support of the KKK, who refused to accept that a black president was qualfied, who is a serial bankrupt, who has neither the attention span or the IQ to grasp complex policy issues. The Dems should have been able to get a fucking donkey elected.

Why couldn't they? The answer is pretty fucking obvious from where I sit.

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 13:52

This is an interesting thread:

Torsten Bell ‏@TorstenBell
Lots of debate out there on role of economics in driving Trump presidency. Obviously only part of story alongside culture/demography but…1/8
Yes rich always more likely to vote republican but what matters is that move towards Trump was amongst poorer voters (+16% since 2012) 2/8
Background to this isn’t simple short term economic issues. US productivity has grown faster than most, albeit slower than pre-crisis 3/8
Anger has got more to do with the US experience of the last 40 years of wages not keeping pace with growth of the economy... 4/8
And something more fundamental: not enough people being in work in first place - still down 5% on 2000 (UK in contrast is up 2%)...5/8
That is being driven by a labour market participation disaster in the US – ie many more people neither working or looking for work 6/8
And key to this is men dropping out of the world of work – down 4% since 2001 alone, and was falling before that 7/8
So US story over longer term of flat wages/less people (men) working in first place is real, even if it doesn’t explain Trump entirely 8/8

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RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 13:59

www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/11/what-brexit-and-donald-trump-can-teach-centre-left-about-politics
What Brexit and Donald Trump can teach the centre left about politics

And yes Mistri. The difference between none white and white college graduates is perhaps the telling statistic.

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merrymouse · 09/11/2016 14:02

If the US is anything like the UK, eventually any incumbent party will struggle to be re-elected because they will have difficulty claiming that they represent change, and just through being in power, will have made mistakes or been blamed for events.

The idea that Americans would have accepted Sanders seems far fetched.

Ideally there would have been an acceptable republican candidate, but as far as I remember they all seemed to have scary ideas?

Again, I am a bit confused about how hard it seems to be to vote in America. If it can really mean waiting in a queue for 3 hours, I'm not surprised that some people either don't bother or simply don't manage to vote.

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 14:12

www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/an-american-tragedy-donald-trump
An American Tragedy

Fab piece.

www.buzzfeed.com/tomphillips/brexit-times-five?utm_term=.ik4jQya1r#.qv3Rj4a50
9 Brexit Lessons From Britain That America Might Want ToLearn

noting number 7 about opposition.

Again, I am a bit confused about how hard it seems to be to vote in America. If it can really mean waiting in a queue for 3 hours, I'm not surprised that some people either don't bother or simply don't manage to vote.
There has been a bit of comment about this, in terms of the fact it is likely to discourage a lot of voting in future, which is not a good state of affairs.

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GloriaGaynor · 09/11/2016 14:12

I think Hillary's failure is complicated. Her connection to Bill didn't help, but then without it, I don't think she'd have got where she did.

You'd think that anyone should have been able to beat Trump, but the same is true of Gove-Johnson-Farage.

Motheroffourdragons · 09/11/2016 14:17

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

BoredofBrexit · 09/11/2016 14:23

So. What from here?

How do you think this will play out on UKs current political situation?

I am still gathering thoughts, but I think we will now need to revisit the 'when and how' (I won't go so far as to add 'if' to that list but it is flitting through my mindSmile) we exit the EU.

LurkingHusband · 09/11/2016 14:45

It's telling how the polls were so wrong for:

UK:2015
UK:Brexit
US:2016

one interpretation of the results is "racists lied". By which I would suggest that changing peoples behaviour (by prosecuting racist behaviour where it's proved) has only changed peoples behaviour. It hasn't changed their beliefs.

So as soon as they have the magic secret space of the ballot box, they can sneak their racist vote in, whilst lying to all about them.

(Is it still a trope in the US that you'll never find anyone admitting to voting for Nixon in 1972 ?).

We've always held secret ballots as a way of protecting an individuals vote, and allowing candidates whose views may not fit the established narrative to have a chance of representation. It's only now becoming clear that it also empowers the extremists.

Here's more fuel for the flame: given recent events, is there a possibility that a Britain First/BNP (or whatever they are called) could field a winning candidate, as people who know their views would be attacked if aired, flock to the privacy of the polling booth ?

Peregrina · 09/11/2016 14:58

is there a possibility that a Britain First/BNP (or whatever they are called) could field a winning candidate, as people who know their views would be attacked if aired, flock to the privacy of the polling booth ?

Theoretically yes. They have been successful in the past in local elections. What has happened then is that they have ended up fighting each other or being barred for non attendance, and people have seen them for what they are worth. So if we had one elected as an MP, we could see their boorish behaviour. How many people actually knew that Farage was an MEP until they saw his goading speech in the EU Parliament? Then they were able to scrutinise his abysmal record on the fishing rights committee whilst pretending to be a champion of the British fishing industry.

I think that UKIP used to have 6 people on Cornwall CC and have now lost them all.

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 15:01

I don't think we can tell how it will affect Brexit just yet. It could go in any direction both for or against our economic interests and there are also different security interests which again could go in any direction.

This is really the point with Trump. He's unpredictable.

And the domino effect now becomes one that the EU has to start to take seriously. I think how Italy fairs in their referendum (and in the aftermath) is more likely to affect that thinking than perhaps Trump, as all thoughts will be on France. I think a domino effect in Germany, however is stone cold dead. Only 5% of the population there support Trump and there is a huge feeling against Brexit. Whilst there is pressure on Merkel domestically, the momentum isn't there, it comes from outside the country for Germany.

Until we perhaps get a little more of an idea of what Trump intends (perhaps through who he decided to put into important positions) then we can't plan too much.

As for the US as a whole. It is going to face a lot of testing of its constitution - and this weakens the country. But these tests on the constitution are going to be tough. Race is going to be a HUGE issue and test - at least in part because Trump voters do not recognise that the is a gap in justice between blacks and whites and this is already a sensitive issue.

Trump is also the most powerful Republican President since 1928 (by virtue of having the senate and the house), he still is going to have limitations. He has more freedom to actually do things rather than compromise - but this lack of need to compromise is also going to be a problem.

In theory. Trump, also has a problem here. What's the plan... he is going to have to deal with divisions within the Republican party. There is going to be a lot of lobbying going on. Just as we have everyone wanting to get their say on Brexit in the absence of a clear vision.

How does he then articulate his intention to the world, and how will the world react to that? He has the republican party, the general US audience and the international one to think of. He has to balance all three. (Like May with the party, country and EU and beyond). This is going to be more difficult that he thinks. Each may not be as happy and as accommodating or as willing to be bulldozed as he might think. (Think May) He is not experienced as a politician. (Again think May with her lack of understanding of how to deal with her own party). The parallels are huge. Really because its a political void.

On the whole everything points to the US being much more inward looking by pure necessity because of this vacuum, at a time when the UK want to perhaps the opposite and its not obvious who this will fit together in terms of the concept of a 'new world order' that might be forming here.

I do think the US will look to us and vice versa slightly because of the lack of clue that is going to appear. This could be mutual or it could be completely at odds with each other. Is one going to lead the other.

My personal feeling is we will both be adrift, without much of an idea where to really go next especially as the realities of the fact that you can not avoid globalisation as much as both countries would ideally like, hit.

In short. No one is really going to have much of an idea this side of Christmas, though there is going to be a lot of speculation and guessing. Which only adds to world uncertainty. This actually leaves other countries to capitalise on this, as I suspect an international political vacuum will now open up.

Russia, is the one most likely to try to capitalise. They are prepared for it, and were looking for it, and we are not. The worry is how this will manifest itself. It might well be purely political / economic rather than aggressive, but it could be aggressive.

Its not an ideal environment to be making huge decisions and trade deals in the middle of though. Knowing the dynamics of everything going on around you tend to be preferable just so you don't make an almighty cock up or misjudgement.

Short answer, I have no fucking idea what now. Only vague fears relating to political vacuums and uncertainty and general lack of direction that will become apparent. Brexit in someways will end up on the backfoot whilst we all get our heads around it

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Peregrina · 09/11/2016 15:11

A political vacuum will open up and since nature abhors a vacuum, it will soon be filled. This could as you say, be with Russia, but what about China? They might copy Britain's Empire building tactic, which initially was via Trade, and only later by military might.

This does seem to be the way they are expanding at present.

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 15:19

China might very well do something. They also have economic difficulties at the moment so it would make sense. I also think something coming from the Middle East would be likely as a particular vacuum will open up there too. It won't be ISIS that capitalise I don't think. Possibly Turkey? Iran? Especially given Russian links with the two. Making a new bloc of increasing influence.

I do think its the end of the 'Western Empire' though, simply because there isn't an obvious way forward for it now.

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Peregrina · 09/11/2016 15:27

I do think its the end of the 'Western Empire' though

I agree. Do Turkey and Iran have sufficient in common?

Peaceandconnection · 09/11/2016 15:42

Somebody on my FB just shared this 'meme' Envy

Trump can run for president with no political experience but I need a masters and 5 years experience for an entry job.

The persona who shared this crap also wrote:

Don't you see. Trump has shown the world you don't need experience to get the job. So go get your dream job, its waiting for you. In fact, go get anything you want. The only limitations are those in your mind. This is in fact a great day for mankind.

Shock Shock

Peaceandconnection · 09/11/2016 15:43

*person

vulpeculaveritas · 09/11/2016 15:48

Does she not realise that you need to be a Harvard educated heir in order to do what Trump has done?

Its like W saying " and to the C grade students I say you too can be President of the United States", leaving out the bit where you need a former President father and to be the sion of a multi millionaire family.

HummusForBreakfast · 09/11/2016 15:48

Russia and Putin are delighted I'm sure....
Putin has. Even trying to expand its influence (but to say territories) fur a while. Trumps is the guy he needed to be able to do wo being disturbed.

jaws5 · 09/11/2016 15:49

I saw that. So thick, I have no words....

Peregrina · 09/11/2016 15:55

So go get your dream job, its waiting for you. In fact, go get anything you want.

Good luck to that idiot when they need surgery, and someone pulled off the street performs it. If it cripples them, it will be what they wished for.

Peaceandconnection · 09/11/2016 15:55

Such delusion, is it insanity or a total lack of thinking capacity? Is it a form of delusion? How can the person think that? I am gobsmacked. The person is really nice, kind an caring in RL too.

Mistigri · 09/11/2016 15:56

Another telling graphic.

Yes, income and education played a part - though not nearly as big a role as we've been telling ourselves.

Look at this and tell me what this election was really all about.

Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?
RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 15:56

Same subject just being discussed on BBC new now. Saying similar things.

Do Turkey and Iran have sufficient in common

Depends if Russia led the way. They could come into conflict too.

It is interesting that Turkey have today asked questions about their future with the EU today and want an answer. They definitely do have regional ambitions.

The end of 'Western Empire' means the west is likely to overall become poorer in relative terms (this is not necessarily a bad thing in global terms). This is certainly not what the intentions of Brexit/Trump vote were though.

There is also an irony here and one we are likely to have to make a decision about which relates to what happens to NATO.

My gut is that the US will be willing to extend defence to us regardless, but it could be a weaker arrangement without other nations who are currently part of NATO. And this will be at the cost of some sovereignty in renegotiating our defensive relationship I expect.

Alternatively NATO could go completely. This leaves us with the very real possibly that we might have to get closer to the EU for defence. Its not lost on me that the prospect of an EU army was one that Leave warned us against, yet the action of the referendum result has driven forces possibly in the exact direction to that, and we may be something of a hobson's choice depending on how events fall.

Or we might have a choice one way or the other to make.

Either way, I suspect a loss of influence will come with it. And either way, a loss of power and sovereignty we are so precious about.

The worst bit - this was all suggested as a possibility pre-referendum and it was shouted down as pure fantasy. Yet here we are. This isn't yet inevitable, but the chance of it all have definitely ramped up a notch or two.

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Mistigri · 09/11/2016 16:08

Well, predictably Corbyn has got it completely wrong. It seems to have escaped him that:

@katehelencarter Apart from the fact that of the 52% of voters who earn less than $50k a year, 41% voted Trump. Over $50k? 49% Trump. But. Hey. Facts, right?

Talk about going out of your way to not call a spade a fucking spade. This election was about not liking people who speak a different language or have too much melatonin.