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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 12:00

Turkey are making noises today about the EU and saying that they need to make a decision on accession negotiations, saying they will have to accept the consequences if they do. They are also saying they welcome Trump, and look forward to working with him if he will extradite Gulen.

(Testing the new waters and pushing the boundaries).

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prettybird · 09/11/2016 12:01

The rise of the "anti-establishment" right on the back of " a rejection of the current economic system that has seen inequality increase rather than decrease (as it was in the 1960~1980)"

The current orthodox which is based on austerity economics and a belief in "trickle down" economics, in which the rich get richer and the poor pay the price hope for scraps from their table. Sad

They might want change but they might not like the change that they experience and rather than placing the blame where it lies, will look for scapegoats - like immigrants or free trade. Sound familiar? Hmm

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 12:18

The poorest households with the poorest incomes did NOT vote Trump. They voted Clinton. However all white income groups favoured Trump. (In other words the poorest in the US are not white, and his real support came from the working poor who are not at the bottom of the pile but fear they will be).

Otherwise the demographic for Trump is almost exactly the same, with the young and minorities being the biggest losers.

Also worth pointing out that votes are still being counted. Trump has 58,917,580 whilst Clinton has 59,040,900 so currently has a larger number of votes. Just. The difference is tiny.

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Peregrina · 09/11/2016 12:28

I thought that the count of votes itself didn't matter? I don't understand the US system though.
It is the same here - a party can win the popular vote but not the seats and so end up in opposition.

Mistigri · 09/11/2016 12:28

Yes - this isn't about the economically left behind at all. I think last night made it abundantly clear that it's all about race.

Race will also probably explain part of the polling error (shy racists. I dare say they won't stay shy for long. And these racists have guns).

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 12:33

Not it doesn't matter, but it only happens occasionally and is a measure of how close it was really and just how divided - evenly - the US is.

Important that people are honest about the racial element of this. Comments suggest that there has been surprisingly little discussion of this in the us as they focus on the working class revolution.

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TheNorthRemembers · 09/11/2016 12:33

Mistigri Your comment sent shivers down my spine.

LurkingHusband · 09/11/2016 12:35

I think 2016 can be summed up as the year we realised - sadly too late - that democracy needs us all to work at, for it to work.

None of this would have been remotely possible, if people had been willing to put in the tiniest effort to engage with the democratic process.

Writ large, what has happened is a class of schoolkids have been asked to volunteer a few minutes picking up litter. Some have grumbled "that's not my job". Some have sat on their hands thinking "Someone else will do it". Some have started to volunteer, but quietly put their hands down when the realise someone else will do it. And those that are left get to choose the music for the school disco.

jaws5 · 09/11/2016 12:40

mistigri, chilling indeed. I am not surprised that many people are very scared today, I would be too. Many Trump supporters are thugs, plain and simple, and they have been legitimized today.

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 12:44

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam

TTIP, Paris climate deal, Iran nuclear deal, all in trouble if Trump sticks by campaign promises. TPP pacific deal too, and some WTO rules.

ABC7News ‏@ABC7News
#BREAKING Fires set in the street and buildings damaged as [anti] Trump protesters gather in Oakland, California.

(Being described as a race riot by some)

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BoredofBrexit · 09/11/2016 12:45

RTB you missed an article by Thomas Frank in today's Guardian (can't link, sorry) 'Donald Trump is moving to the White House and the liberals put him there. Food for thought.

Mistigri · 09/11/2016 12:48

Why are liberals queueing up to take the blame, in some kind of bizarre auto-flagellation ritual?

Mistigri · 09/11/2016 12:52

Here is the table that tells you everything you need to know about the election (I'm not aware of a similar tabulation for brexit but I would guess at a similar distribution).

Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?
InformalRoman · 09/11/2016 12:55

The Guardian article is here:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/09/donald-trump-white-house-hillary-clinton-liberals

The gist of it is that Clinton was the wrong candidate to pitch against Trump.

NotDavidTennant · 09/11/2016 12:57

It's interesting that the narrative on this is already beginning to be built.

My recollection was that Clinton tried to run a traditional campaign with emphasis on the competencies and policies of the candidates, while Trump spent most of the campaign throwing out insults, threats and blanket denigration of whole groups such as Muslims and Mexicans, all the while cheered on by his supporters. And yet already on the 'Trump has won' thread we're being told this has all happened because the liberals have been 'nasty' and 'shrill' and this is why 'the people' have turned against them.

It almost reminds of those threads in Relationships were the DH has accused the poster of being abusive to deflect from their own abuse.

jaws5 · 09/11/2016 13:06

Thomas Frank in today's Guardian (can't link, sorry) 'Donald Trump is moving to the White House and the liberals put him there. Food for thought

I read it and it talks about Clinton being the wrong adversary, apparently we should all become populists now, otherwise when Trump/Farage/Le Pen win it will be our fault Hmm

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 13:08

I am aware of some of the thing about liberal putting him there idea.

Clinton was the wrong candidate. Economic policy didn't work

It was a failure of campaign strategy (which we over here could see coming due to Brexit).

It does have to be said here though that Obama has had his hands tied behind his back due to the make up of the House and Senate and the unwillingness to make a compromise - so a very different situation in terms of power. Conservatives have very definitely played no small part of the problem and the economic failings / problems due to their opposition to policies which may have helped cut inequality. It served them to be obstructive - at the expense of the poorest.

And by the same token it doesn't change the fact the US racism which is far more institutionalised than the UK and steeped in American history.

These differences make Trump's election worse in many respects. There is a certain refusal to admit that minorities are worse off, and an expectation that whites should enjoy a certain privilege over ethnic majorities to a degree that is far greater than in the UK, because of the history.

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Peregrina · 09/11/2016 13:13

The gist of it is that Clinton was the wrong candidate to pitch against Trump.

Compare this with blaming Remainers for the mess Brexit is in.

GloriaGaynor · 09/11/2016 13:14

What Frank really means in that piece is that Biden and Sanders are men.

'Powerful plainspoken style' = man talking.

I don't think it's a given that either 'would' have won against Trump as he claims, but it's possible that they'd have had a better chance just for being male.

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 13:26

I'm not sure its just down to the fact that Biden and Sanders are men.

Clinton failed to connect with women herself even in younger age groups amongst white women. The only group she connected with was college educated white women (and even here she only got 51%. This is surprising, you would expect it to be higher), Trump got 62% of non college educated white women. Trump got 53% of the vote of white women over all. Clinton also didn't get as many of the youth vote out as was expected - which Sanders appealed to, not because of his gender but because of his politics. Given the polarisation of the vote, age mattered - older people voted Trump anyway. She didn't show passion in a way that connected with people like Sanders.

Yes gender DOES come into it, but just saying it was cos she was a woman doesn't cut it either completely.

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Mistigri · 09/11/2016 13:26

Biden might have had a shout, for his folkiness. Sanders, not a fucking chance. Young people don't turnout enough, and he would have scared wealthy whites shitless.

But ultimately it was the failure of white women to support HRC that lost her the election - making it pretty fucking hard to see this as a misogynist vote rather than a racist one.

GloriaGaynor · 09/11/2016 13:27

6. All in mainstream politics need to look harder, listen better + think smarter about the underlying causes of popular anger + address them

Are the Tories going to address the UN report into the violations the rights of disabled people by disproportionately targeting the disabled in austerity policies?

Dismissing the report's conclusions 'offensive' (as Damian Green did) could not be more offensive to the disabled.

GloriaGaynor · 09/11/2016 13:34

I'm not sure its just down to the fact that Biden and Sanders are men

I don't think it is, but I think that's what Frank thinks.

Sanders didn't have a bat's chance in hell but Frank bills him as 'inspiring and scandal-free', stating either of them 'would have beaten Trump'. Not even could but 'would'.

GloriaGaynor · 09/11/2016 13:36

Yes gender DOES come into it, but just saying it was cos she was a woman doesn't cut it either completely.

I didn't say that, I'm simply commenting on Frank's perspective.

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 13:40

Biden might have had a shout, for his folkiness. Sanders, not a fucking chance. Young people don't turnout enough, and he would have scared wealthy whites shitless.

I think Sanders might have got the young vote out as he offered something. People do vote if there is a reason to even in groups that don't normally vote. They instead were rather alienated by the choice of Clinton (and didn't come out as much as hoped). This was something the Democrat campaign were well aware of and didn't ever address.

As for wealthy whites, the true blue states are the wealthiest. The middle incomes in the more conservative states were more likely to be a problem, and he might have compensated for this with the working class.

Yes its all speculation, but from day one when you looked at Clinton v Sanders before it did get the very misogynist tones of the election, you could see her ultimate weaknesses and they were not about her gender. The campaign never really managed to shake these off.

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