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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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birdybirdywoofwoof · 09/11/2016 09:57

Most of Trumps wealth was inherited or built on loans against his inheritance. He's gone bankrupt four times!

He's a .....can't think of a bad enough word.

merrymouse · 09/11/2016 10:01

His line of clothing is made in China.

It's difficult to find clothes that aren't made in a country where workers are paid low wages. It would be more relevant if he were profitably manufacturing clothes in the US.

You don't come out of so many bankruptcies so wealthy without the ability to convince those you are dealing with that they are getting a good deal

Yes, he is very, very, very good at convincing people that he is offering them a good deal. Delivering on that promise is a different matter.

When you run a business it doesn't matter so much if you don't pay creditors or your staff - as long as your staff aren't your customers there will be people to buy your products, and hopefully the government can keep them from starvation. If you pay them really badly, they might be able to find work elsewhere, and your business plan may fail and you may go bankrupt, but that is how the market is supposed to work - it weeds out ideas that don't work. Donald Trump has been weeded out many times, but managed to escape with the money.

However, in business you only have to fool some of the people some of the time.

He doesn't have any history of long lasting business deals that help anyone but Donald Trump. Again, look at his golf course in Scotland - big promises were made to Aberdeen, but the whole thing has been mired in controversy and animosity.

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 10:04

sluggerotoole.com/2016/11/09/in-a-state-of-shock-an-early-verdict-trump-has-no-baggage-he-starts-with-a-clean-sheet/#pq=bKpv7z
His pledge of a Trump New Deal is very unRepublican and is Rooseveltian in its ambition. It plays to his instincts as a property developer. It’ll be diverting to see how conventional Republicans in Congress will react to the prospect of voting a trillion dollars on the much needed renewal of America’s infrastructure.
The Brexit theme has just become bigger. Trump’s specific pledge to renegotiate of unpopular trade deals and pivot towards greater US protection will shrink volumes and make it harder for the UK to strike new deals to replace a fall in trading with the EU. Might it have a perverse effect of forcing the EU to become more outward looking?

On social reforms Americans were perhaps fortunate that they were able to achieve a good deal in most states during the Obama presidency. A stay on further abortion reform will give confidence to conservative opinion in both parts of Ireland. In the US the big target for conservatives is reversing the Roe v Wade judgment that permits elective abortion.

Ironically this is also a victory for part of the establishment. Some consolation can be taken from the Republican clean sweep in Congress and the forthcoming conservative consolidation of the Supreme Court.

Freed from Democrat competition the Republican majorities have the responsibility to check a president who is only nominally one of them. Establishment members will fill hundreds of posts in the administration and try to turn sound bites into workable policies. Rudi Guilliani was a brazen Trump supporter and the inspiring mayor of New York on 9/11. He may become one of Trump’s guardians in the White House.

Election Data ‏@election_data
I'd much rather be field in UKIP than Labour at the moment. Much easier task to identify and target their vote and then message it. While Labour continue having broad debates UKIP look and sound like change. "We're just saying what you're thinking" is an easy message to deliver, or words to that effect. Around a leader like Nuttall with Farage in the background. Labour on the other hand fumble around looking for ever more sophisticated ways to meet the challenge they are being set. But hey wtf would I know?

What if the polling for Labour is off. And the reality is even worse?

Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound
This shows what an opportunity Jeremy Corbyn would have if he didn't believe in limitless immigration & the IRA + did believe in patriotism

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RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 10:12

If you can watch the video of this, please please do watch this from comment from Van Jones (can be found on twitter of ‏@amolrajan). It is heart felt.

amol rajan ‏@amolrajan
In which @VanJones68 nails it on behalf of those who fear Trump

"There's another side of this. People have talked about a miracle. I'm hearing about a nightmare. It's hard to be a parent tonight for a lot of us. You tell your kids, 'Don't be a bully'. You tell your kids 'don't be a bigot'. You tell your kids 'do your homework and be prepared.' And then you have this outcome. And you have people putting children to bed tonight and they're afraid of breakfast. Afraid of 'how do I explain this to my children?' I have Muslim friends texting me tonight saying, 'should I leave the country?' I have families of immigrants who are terrified tonight. This was many things... We've talked about everything but race tonight. This was a white lash against a changing country. A white lash against a black president, in part. And that's where the pain comes."

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merrymouse · 09/11/2016 10:19

I have a question.

There have been stories of 3 hour queues at polling stations in the US.

I have never, ever had to queue in the UK, I am always notified of my polling station well in advance, it is always within walking distance and polls are always open from 7-10.

Is there a reason why it seems to be so hard to vote in the US or is this all voter suppression?

Corcory · 09/11/2016 10:19

I am really disgusted that Trump has won. He is such an awful person. As said above his bullying, bigoted misogynistic views are absolutely terrible.
I am a leave voter but I certainly don't want anything to do with Trump.

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 10:20

Raf Sanchez ‏@rafsanchez
Israeli education minister @naftalibennett says Trump's victory means "the era of a Palestinian state is over".

"I congratulate President-elect Donald Trump, and all the American people.

I thank Hillary Clinton for her friendship with Israel.

We're sure the special relationship between the United States and Israel will continue, and even grow stronger.

Trump's victory is an opportunity for Israel to immediately retract the notion of a Palestinian state in the center of the country, which would hurt our security and just cause.

This is the position of the President-elect, as written in his platform, and it should be our policy, plain and simple.

The era of a Palestinian state is over"

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RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 10:22

May has made a statement. Its kind of bland. Corbyn's is more interesting:

Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?
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merrymouse · 09/11/2016 10:23

We're sure the special relationship between the United States and Israel will continue, and even grow stronger.

Except apparently not, because Trump is going to be able to steer clear of all that nasty Middle East stuff...or leave it to Putin... Or something...

TheBathroomSink · 09/11/2016 10:26

Farage cosying up to Trump is nothing about cementing the 'special relationship' between the US and UK, it's all about what Farage can get for Farage. PoliticsHome is claiming he's said he'd take US citizenship in order to work for Trump.

Can the EU reject a proposed Ambassador?

merrymouse · 09/11/2016 10:33

US citizenship in order to work for Trump.

Is that good or bad?

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 10:37

Talking of stuff that might get buried in Trump News (yep I'm looking out for things MagikarpetRide, hope other people are too today):

Éoin ‏@LabourEoin
Huge day today in Tory UK. The UK Supreme Court will judge on whether the Tories are right to make disabled folk pay the Bedroom Tax.

Brexit Watch ‏@BrexitWatch
People who support the death penalty were the most likely to vote #Brexit. Something similar in the US?

Breaking News Feed @pzf
BREAKING NEWS: Nebraska voters restore death penalty.

This from Theresa May's head of policy board:
George Freeman MP ‏@Freeman_George

Reflections on #Trump victory. 1.Stunning demonstn of how disempowered low income Americans feel by Washington politics + globalisation
2. However much any of us might have disliked his campaign, we all have to respect the fact that he's been elected by the American people.
3. The key now is how he governs. And who he appoints to his administration. A US President is not a Prime Minister.
4. The roar of anger at globalisation, machine politics, out-of-touch elites etc has now swept UK+USA. Will EU leaders wake-up or ignore it?
5. The insurgency is a big test for the constitutional protections for liberty + democracy in U.K. + U.S. We all need to defend them.
6. All in mainstream politics need to look harder, listen better + think smarter about the underlying causes of popular anger + address them
7. It's clear we're living through a genuine crisis of legitimacy sweeping Western political economy. At a time of huge #global challenges.
8. At its heart this is about a broken 'contract' thru the failure of globalised market economics to serve the interests of domestic workers
9. To regain the respect+legitimacy for mainstream national political leadership we need to be bold in tackling the root causes of despair.
10. It's not just words that have to change. We need new Policies to respond to and address the grassroots failure of our #politicaleconomy
11. This is the challenge @theresa_may brilliantly captured in her electrifying conference speech. #21stC Conservatism.

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RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 10:40

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/09/families-win-supreme-court-appeals-over-unfair-bedroom-tax-jacqueline-carmichael?CMP=twt_gu
Partial defeat for government at supreme court over bedroom tax. But looks like some of the claims were dismissed too.

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TheBathroomSink · 09/11/2016 10:42

merry - I can imagine it would be a good thing for Farage, however I think anything which gives him influence and a higher profile can only be a bad thing in general.

HummusForBreakfast · 09/11/2016 10:42

I fully agree with the start of. Orbyn statement.
The vote in the US (and here and I suspect in other cases ou tries in the next year or so -e.g. In France they expect that the Second round for the presidential elections will be between the right and Marie LePen)
is about a rejection of the current economic system that has seen inequality increase rather than decrease (as it was in the 1960~1980).
Plus if we are honest, it's not sustainable ressources wise too.

There has been a few people saying that we are heading towards turbulent times as we are finding a new economic system. I suspect these votes are about that.

hotmail124 · 09/11/2016 10:43

His pledge of a Trump New Deal is very unRepublican and is Rooseveltian in its ambition. It plays to his instincts as a property developer

Or like Hitler's autarkic(autarky got the autobahns built) economic policies, being aped by the coup meisters in the UK

HummusForBreakfast · 09/11/2016 10:47

XPost Red
Actually I agree with G Freeman Shock well all bar the last point. I can't see anything that TM is doing that is going to solve the 10 points he us rightly highlighting.

HummusForBreakfast · 09/11/2016 10:48

Does anyone know a western bcountry whete the far right isnt winning?

ImpYCelyn · 09/11/2016 10:53

That statement about the a Palestinian state is terrifying!!

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 10:53

Re G Freeman: immigration control the solution to point 8. Much more domestically driven problem / solution than merely trying to fight globalisation.

Is there a reason why it seems to be so hard to vote in the US or is this all voter suppression?
No idea. I know rules on voting process vary widely state to state. Those that are stricter tend to be your traditional conservative areas.

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merrymouse · 09/11/2016 10:54

bathroom, but on the bright side, he wouldn't be here. However I suspect that Trump doesn't have much use for Farage now.

TheNorthRemembers · 09/11/2016 10:57

On November 2, the entire civilised world will be praying, praying Bush loses. And Sod’s law dictates he’ll probably win, thereby disproving the existence of God once and for all. The world will endure four more years of idiocy, arrogance and unwarranted bloodshed, with no benevolent deity to watch over and save us.
Charlie Brooker in 2004. I have got to say W looks a really good choice nowadays.

LurkingHusband · 09/11/2016 11:10

PoliticsHome is claiming he's said he'd take US citizenship in order to work for Trump.

So Trump starting his regime by importing a worker ?

Will Farage pay US tax on his UK earnings ?

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 11:10

Is immigration control etc sorry.

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RedToothBrush · 09/11/2016 11:14

Re Farage: wants all the power and fame of being a world leader. But none of the responsibility. When given responsibility in a proper role he did fuck all. That doesn't look so great on his cv.

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