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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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Motheroffourdragons · 08/11/2016 14:45

This reply has been withdrawn

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flippinada · 08/11/2016 14:48

I don't think history will look kindly on DC. And he's not stupid, he may know what a monumental mess (understatement) he's made of things. That'll be why the low profile.

flippinada · 08/11/2016 14:48

*must know. No 'may' about it.

Peregrina · 08/11/2016 14:54

I think Cameron will join the ranks of Anthony Eden and Neville Chamberlain, who, I gather, were regarded as being perfectly competent and able before their spectacular failings. He could easily go down in history as the man who broke up the UK by accident, as well as being the man who inflicted a generation's worth of damage on us both financially and to the country's reputation.

lalalonglegs · 08/11/2016 15:02

I don't think Cameron was stupid either, in the traditional sense. But he was flippant, he didn't put a lot of thought/effort into things, didn't really dig into the detail. Brexit, of course, is the most obvious example of this but I tend to think of his premiership as one of the "law of unintended consequences" because he'd just announce something... and then move on.

I would love to think that he is sitting at home, rocking slowly, beating himself up about the mess he has created but I don't believe that he is for a moment. He has that capacity - perhaps born of wealth and privilege - to sigh deeply and then look to horizons new.

flippinada · 08/11/2016 15:05

I didn't imagine that he was keeping his head down through shame or remorse, rather self preservation/not wanting to draw attention.

LurkingHusband · 08/11/2016 15:06

I've always felt sorry for Chamberlain. He was a spectacular victim of hindsight. Moreover, regardless of what people today think (I bet a lot of whom voted Brexit) the UK in 1938 was really desperate to avoid a war. Churchill was regarded as a bit of a loon, and Chamberlain initially hailed as a hero on return from Munich.

I have fuck all sympathy for Cameron who had the best advice money could buy, and knew all the possibilities before he announced project Referendum.

Even then, if he had been trying to do something noble, I might soften my heart. But he wasn't. His only concern was to keep the Tory party together. And it would be fitting justice if the last scene of this tragedy was the final - spectacular - implosion of the Conservative and Unionist party along with the Union itself.

prettybird · 08/11/2016 15:08

Not sure if this has been posted already but here's Ian Dunt on politics.co.uk pointing out how pointless little Theresa May will actually get out of her trip to India Hmm

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/11/07/india-shows-the-ultimate-failure-of-the-brexit-project

Peregrina · 08/11/2016 15:14

His only concern was to keep the Tory party together. And it would be fitting justice if the last scene of this tragedy was the final - spectacular - implosion of the Conservative and Unionist party ......

I live in hope.

RedToothBrush · 08/11/2016 16:47

Am I right in my vague feeling that while Scotland and England both look to Elizabeth Windsor as their Queen, the actual thrones of England and Wales are distinct ? Could this play a constitutional part in the debate ?

The ruling in the a50 case said that it did not look at the constitutional arrangements for Scotland before making its decision because the constitutional argument was so strong on the basic premise of how a50 under the royal prerog worked.

Thus the implications of the union were not looked at and still remain an avenue to be explored in defending Scotland's decision.

Its interest that they avoided this question. They possibly did because it has political implications and by focusing on the non political parts of the case they were being prudent about protecting the courts.

www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ni-ag-says-further-consideration-of-brexit-challenge-warranted-1.2859340

The failed NI case today asked to be referred direct to the Supreme Court (leapfrogging the court of appeal like the English People Challenge has already been). It seems they have dropped part of the NI claim, and only intend to pursue one of the two cases. The English ruling had made a comment about the scope of the NI case being 'too broad' so its interesting to see this. It suggests they are taking note and the High Court's 'advice' in why the claim failed. There has yet to be a decision but if it is given approval it would be unprecedented for a NI case. (If it doesn't it still has the right to go to the appeal court in Belfast and then on to the Supreme Court).

This comment here a significant intervention too - its what Truss should have done:

Justice Committee ‏@CommonsJustice
Read the statement from @neill_bob on judicial independence:

Bob Neill MP, Chair of the Justice Committee, has made the following statement by resolution of the Committee:

"The Justice Committee condemns any personal attacks on members of the judiciary. Free debate should not be couched in terms of abuse of individuals who, by virtue of the oath they have take and the role they discharge, cannot defend themselves publically.

It is quite wrong to vilify or attack judges or attempt to intimidate or undermine them.

The right of the press to speak freely must be exercised responsibility; it is not a licence to attack judges in a personal manner or seek to undermine the constitutional principle of judicial independence, which is absolute"

Everyone on MN should know the difference here in terms of free speech. Everything is fair game as long as it doesn't a) break the law b) isn't a personal attack. Strange to see a government committee effectively have to spell this out to the wider media!

Anyway the English a50 case will be heard on four days over 5-8 Dec (as expected). As it is not a criminal case and there are not witnesses / victims as such and is about points of law, and its such an important case the Supreme court are able to broadcast the hearing. So the case will be streamed live - so we all get to WATCH it this time around.

The court said in a statement that the ruling is liking to be in the new year (rather than before Christmas).

Terry Piner - 48% ‏@terrybp
@Lawandpolicy So is Farage and his 100000 going to wait outside for 4 days? It may be very cold in December?

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham
Read Paul Dacre's evidence on the 'right' relationship between media and judiciary (from page 70)
www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200607/ldselect/ldconst/151/151.pdf
I think its actually on p198 of the actual PDF but this is HOUSE OF LORDS
Select Committee on the Constitution: Relations between the executive, the judiciary and Parliament

Its is a fascinating exchange between Dacre and the committee on what he thinks the relationship between the judges and the press is. Here is a quote which I think probably most reflects what he says in its entirety.

Q335 Chairman: Let me plunge in. One of the questions on the mind of this Committee—and we have just been having some evidence on this before you joined us—is how the British public see the judges, particularly now, in this era of constitutional innovation, where there is greater separation between the judiciary and the executive in the shape of the Government. The question that is preoccupying us is how the public see the judges. I just wonder, from your lofty editorial perch, both at Associated Newspapers and at the Daily Mail, about your own opinion of the way the public see the judiciary.

Mr Dacre: Firstly, I think the public still have huge faith in the independence and integrity and uncorruptibility of the British judiciary. I do not think that can be said loud enough. Having said that, if I am being honest I suspect that many of our readers and many members of the public are slightly confused about the judges these days. They see, with increasing frequency, decisions made by elected governments being overturned by the judiciary; they see increasingly controversial decisions being made by judges, perhaps political judgments being made by judges, which fly in the face of what they perceive as national interests. They see an increasingly lenient judiciary, handing down lesser and lesser sentences for what many regard as serious crimes. I think they are confused. They still have great faith in the judiciary but there are worries that it is not reflecting their values and their instincts.

Q336 Chairman: It is interesting that in that answer you, in a sense, ran together the political and judicial dimension. One of the things that is exercising the Committee is, given what a strongly partisan adversarial political culture we have in this country, is it possible that the reporting of judicial decisions is assimilated into what I will call, in shorthand, “political reporting”, that it becomes part of a political narrative of a struggle of ideas, a struggle for power, rather than being seen for what it is: an area circumscribed by law itself? I think there may be a danger that it is seen as part of the glamorous and hard-pitched political struggle in the widest sense rather than having a steer of its own.

Mr Dacre: Forgive me, my Lord Chairman, are you talking about the reporting?

Q337 Chairman: I am talking about the reporting and, therefore, ultimately the perception.

Mr Dacre: Newspapers are not immune to battles between politicians and judges, and views expressed by politicians and controversial decisions made by judges. I would like to think that our newspapers report factually and comment freely. But there is no doubt about it, the relationship between the executive and the judiciary has become a story and it is possibly creating a gladiatorial sense about some of the reporting that might be causing anxieties on the judicial side.

Q338 Lord Windlesham: Is that more so than in the past?

Mr Dacre: I would certainly think so, yes. I certainly think so.

Q339 Lord Windlesham: Causes?

Mr Dacre: The elephant in the room is the Human Rights Act, which, it is no secret, we believe has placed the judges in an impossible position, whereby it is leading to them making political judgments which is setting them against the politicians.

This is a HUGELY important opinion in the context of Brexit.

Remember May is of the same opinion and wants rid of the Human Rights Act to be replaced with a British Bill of Rights. Remember what May said in her Tory Party Conference speech:
But we will never again – in any future conflict – let those activist, left-wing human rights lawyers harangue and harass the bravest of the brave – the men and women of Britain’s Armed Forces.
The same language and same thing suggesting that human rights lawyers are both left wing and 'activists'.

Dacre is by the way, incorrect. He is trying to politicise judges rather using the correct challenge of getting amendments to law through parliament. Judges can only implement law set by parliament. If there is a problem it lies with parliament and not the courts. The politicising is being done by the press and not down to the judges.

Also remember how important the Human Rights Act is to the Scottish and NI Devolution Agreements and how important the HRA is to many, many liberals. WHO IS BEING DEMONISED AS THE ENEMY TO BREXIT? The same people; the nationalists and the liberals.

They are trying to shift things so they can get right of the HRA imo.

Watch how many times there has been a stressing about how rights will not be removed, yet here we are.

We have a BIG BIG battle to protect the HRA on the cards here at some point. Its coming. Not sure when, but I do think its on the agenda at some point.

Watch it happen.

It is possible that Brexit can only happen with the repeal of the HRA. It is possible this then threatens the devolution settlements themselves. It is possible this the direction we are headed. I'm not sure at this stage, how far it will go or whether this is true, but there is a direct line between the two things here that needs to be followed closely.

It could be pitched that we need to get rid of the HRA to Brexit to the public.

This, is not a situation we want to end up in... It has very unpleasant potential outcomes.

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RedToothBrush · 08/11/2016 16:52

Oh and if that hasn't alarmed you enough for today:

Ladbrokes Politics ‏@LadPolitics
BREXIT odds on morning of June 23:
1/4 REMAIN
3/1 LEAVE

Current #ElectionDay odds:
1/4 CLINTON
3/1 TRUMP

That said Americans can't (legally) bet. So this is a reflection more of British opinion, so its hardly surprising its mirroring Brexit. America politics is different. And unlike the UK there is more of this notion about 'protecting democracy' and not taking it for granted because unlike us, they have a written constitution and history which is taught and has much greater understanding in the public as a result.

(I need to catch up the US stuff. Been out most of the day. No idea how it is shaping up. Not sure I want to know!).

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LurkingHusband · 08/11/2016 16:55

It could be pitched that we need to get rid of the HRA to Brexit to the public.

That'll confuse some who though "the EU" was synonymous with "yuman rights" ....

LurkingHusband · 08/11/2016 16:56

for me, the last word on free speech is the canard about shouting FIRE in a crowded theater ...

SapphireStrange · 08/11/2016 17:38

Red, do you have a link to the source for the statement? (as in, not just the Twitter feed).

I've had a vapid response from Waitrose on my email about them giving away the Daily Heil and I'd like to counter with this statement, but would rather send a link to the original than a Twitter link. Thanks!

StripeyMonkey1 · 08/11/2016 17:46

From The Independent. This would make me very happy.

European Parliament considers plan to let individual Brits opt-in to keep their EU citizenship.

The idea was tabled by a liberal MEP from Luxembourg.

Associate EU citizenship would allow Brits to keep freedom of movement

The European Parliament is to consider a plan that would allow British citizens to opt-in and keep their European Union citizenship – and its associated benefits – once the UK leaves the EU.

The proposal, which has been put before a parliamentary committee as an amendment, would grant the citizens of former member states the voluntary right to retain “associate citizenship” of the EU.

Associate citizens would be allowed to keep free movement across the EU as full citizens currently enjoy and would be allowed to vote in European Parliament elections, meaning they were still represented in Brussels.

The proposal could potentially give Brits who live and work across borders a workaround to the disruption caused by the Leave vote – and young people looking to flee an increasingly insular UK greater choice over where to move to.

Amendment 882 was proposed by Charles Goerens, a liberal MEP from Luxembourg. It will be considered by the European Parliament’s Constitutional Affairs Committee, which is drawing up a report with recommendations on “Possible evolutions of and adjustments to the current institutional set-up of the European Union”.

Brexit campaigners in Britain reacted with anger to the idea, arguing that it would discriminate against Leave voters and that it was “an outrage”.

The amendment suggests the provision of “European associate citizenship for those who feel and wish to be part of the European project but are nationals of a former Member State; offers these associate citizens the rights of freedom of movement and to reside on its territory as well as being represented in the Parliament through a vote in the European elections on the European lists”.

Though the British Government has been coy on what it wants Britain’s post-Brexit future to look like, it is likely that British citizens will lose the automatic right to live and work in the EU after Brexit.

vulpeculaveritas · 08/11/2016 17:48

"Brexit campaigners in Britain reacted with anger to the idea, arguing that it would discriminate against Leave voters and that it was “an outrage”."

Well you can't have your cake and eat it you know.

Peregrina · 08/11/2016 17:50

I fail to see why Leavers are upset about this Amendment - there would be nothing stopping them from applying for Associate European citizenship. It seems they don't want to be in the EU and no one should either. I would apply myself if that was the only option and it wasn't prohibitively expensive.

SapphireStrange · 08/11/2016 17:52

Just written to my MEPs to express my support for this amendment and to ask them to represent my views. I am incensed at the prospect of being stripped of my right to free movement.

Peregrina · 08/11/2016 18:02

I'm in the South East Region of the European Parliament. Guess which MEPs I have to represent me? Farage, Hannan, to name two. I don't think I'll get much joy out of them, but will try the Lib Dem.

jaws5 · 08/11/2016 18:03

Brexit campaigners in Britain reacted with anger to the idea, arguing that it would discriminate against Leave voters and that it was “an outrage”, yeah, Fortress Britain for all!

RedToothBrush · 08/11/2016 18:03

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-citizenship-freedom-of-movement-passport-how-to-keep-parliament-live-move-abroad-a7405196.html
European Parliament considers plan to let individual Brits opt-in to keep their EU citizenship
The idea was tabled by a liberal MEP fromLuxembourg

THIS is brilliant

Especially THIS reaction:

Brexit campaigners in Britain reacted with anger to the idea, arguing that it would discriminate against Leave voters and that it was “an outrage”.

The amendment suggests the provision of “European associate citizenship for those who feel and wish to be part of the European project but are nationals of a former Member State; offers these associate citizens the rights of freedom of movement and to reside on its territory as well as being represented in the Parliament through a vote in the European elections on the European lists”.

Why Brexit or even being in the EEA is ultimately bollocks really, and ignores the trade barriers / lack of control you self impose by leaving the EU itself:

Allie Renison ‏@AllieRenison
I might be overinterpreting but it sounds like from FCA's Andrew Bailey's evidence to the Treasury Cttee he doesn't want UK to be in the EEA

But then again it's not earth-shatteringly surprising that a regulator accords significant priority to setting/influencing standards

One of #Brexit's biggest tradeoffs (likely only to materialise in longer term) will be btwn reg/leg control + impact of divergence on trade

We know reg divergence across borders leads 2 NTBs to trade. Inevitable w/Brexit unless in EEA. But 'taking standards' not ideal 4 UK either

And for some sectors, reg. compatibility btwn UK & EU -dare I say it even harmonisation- is v. imp to maintain. UK's reg. control less imp.

For pharmaceuticals/chemicals, single set of standards critical to expediting licensing approval & trading. For fin servs, control more imp

This is why any bespoke arrangement that is not some EEA variant means framework for reg co-op btwn UK & EU standards bodies is critical

Samuel Lowe ‏@SamuelMarcLowe
Agree. And if heavily integrated will also require independent dispute resolution, surveillance and judicial mechanisms.

www.bbc.co.uk/events/eqbxj5/live/cnxnc8
This being pointed out on twitter. Comments from different leave MPs
Notably:
There is still no settled view within the Leave camp about what Out looks like. Michael Gove this weekend insisted our future would lie outside the single market. But Kwasi Kwarteng, arguing for Leave tonight, thought the UK’s post-Brexit status remained a matter for negotiation.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/go-wrong-lib-dem-days-9221015#ICID=sharebar_twitter
Where did it all go wrong? The Lib Dem days of Tory Liz Truss

Teeny Truss was an activist in the yellow peril's Youth & Student wing, attending the pictured July 1994 protest on Twyford Down against Conservative Home Secretary Michael Howard's Criminal Justice Bill.

Back then the In-Justice Secretary in Theresa May's Government stood up for civil liberties by objecting to restriction on raves and wider stop and search powers

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TheElementsSong · 08/11/2016 18:04

Associate EU citizenship

That sounds fantastic! I hope they go for it...

Why would Leavers be angry about it? Confused And claiming discrimination, of all things!

RedToothBrush · 08/11/2016 18:11

SapphireStrange Tue 08-Nov-16 17:38:58
Red, do you have a link to the source for the statement? (as in, not just the Twitter feed).

www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/justice-committee/news-parliament-20151/judicial-independence-chairs-statement-16-17/
There you go.

I would happily remain an EU citizen. If even for a cost.

Perhaps I should write to my Independent MEP to ask him to support.
That'll be Stephen Woolfe. If only to just to troll him

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Peregrina · 08/11/2016 18:16

I have just written to Catherine Bearder - she lives in Oxford, so since I am in Oxford West and Abingdon, she was a good one to contact.

Peregrina · 08/11/2016 18:17

That'll be Stephen Woolfe. If only to just to troll him

Once a kipper, always a kipper.

Interesting stuff about Liz Truss - a turncoat.