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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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LurkingHusband · 08/11/2016 11:16

I wrote a comment on one of the DM articles on Meghan saying that this country was too racist to accept a mixed race gf for Prince Harry

She needs to be careful who drives her around if she ever visits Paris.

LurkingHusband · 08/11/2016 11:17

I don't think May can go on like this till 2020.

A bit too pessimistic ... she might ,make it until the end of the week ...

whatwouldrondo · 08/11/2016 11:18

Well it gets worse, Daily Hate coverage of Harry's press release. Emphasis in the clickbait headline on it confirming they are in a relationship but not a mention of his condemnation of the racism and sexism in the headline or copy, you would have to click on the actual press release. Instead it comments that she was frequently seen wearing "African jewellery" on her visits to London. That is not so much dogwhistle politics as an up yours Harry, we will be as racist, and vile, as we want to be. I dare not look at the comments......www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3916188/It-s-official-Prince-Harry-dating-Suits-actress-Meghan-Markle.html

Peregrina · 08/11/2016 11:22

The Harry story - WOW. He will also be mindful of how the Press hounded his mother, even though in her case the coverage was mostly flattering. Let's see if the Red Tops print a huge apology.

It's a clever statement IMO. What will the detractors be saying about Harry? The privileged lifestyle? He's addressed that.
He hasn't mentioned that he's served his country in Afghanistan, and would have done more, had he been allowed to, so he can't be criticised there.

Peregrina · 08/11/2016 11:31

My impression is Harry is maturing into a thoughtful and considerate man, willing to take on his Mother's mantel of working for charity. The question for me is, is this likely to protect him, or has our country gone so far down the road of race hatred that it will override any positive feeling for Harry and the late Princess Di?

flippinada · 08/11/2016 11:32

Wow, good on Prince Harry. There's a phrase I never thought I'd type.

The DM continues to mine ever more foetid depths.

LurkingHusband · 08/11/2016 11:38

My impression is Harry is maturing into a thoughtful and considerate man, willing to take on his Mother's mantel of working for charity. The question for me is, is this likely to protect him, or has our country gone so far down the road of race hatred that it will override any positive feeling for Harry and the late Princess Di?

She had to die to become a saint. Those of us who where around at the time can recall she came in for her fair share of flak about her post-Charles life. Remember she broke the toff tradition of putting up with shitty behaviour for appearances.

See how it works ... we're straying from Brexit into Royal gossip Sad

GloriaGaynor · 08/11/2016 11:39

I think it was a bit naive of him not to know how the worst bits of this country would react to an older American gf let alone a mixed race one.

I knew exactly what the reaction was going to be.

There was enough racism over Dodi, and Diana's heirs were already produced.

Peregrina · 08/11/2016 12:07

I don't want to stray too much into Royal Gossip but with the racism over Dodi, Diana had already been cast out of the family. Harry, by contrast, is a working (as far as they do) Royal i.e. Charles & Camilla, William & Catherine and Harry are the ones who are the most visible now as the Queen takes a back seat.

TheNorthRemembers · 08/11/2016 12:16

I have nothing sensible of add, but please continue discussing Prince Harry instead of the US election. I am walking around muttering Mistigri's words to myself: "not even close".

Peregrina · 08/11/2016 12:20

When will we know the result of the US election? I don't understand this stuff about votes being 'called' but as soon as the polls close they seem to know.
Unless of course, we get a Florida situation - which could get nasty. Just think if Al Gore had won as he should have done and John Smith hadn't died prematurely, how much better the world would have been.

LurkingHusband · 08/11/2016 12:21

More Brexploitation ...

Enterprise-level (i.e. we'll all end up paying for it, because it's what businesses use) IT hardware going up to account for the falling pound.

That'll be a few quid less to pay UK staff then - or rather the current number of UK staff.

TheNorthRemembers · 08/11/2016 12:34

Peregrina Not sure about the timing, but I have just read Jonathan Freedland who raised the prospect of the Russians hacking the election software rendering it invalid. Feeling sick.

tiggytape · 08/11/2016 12:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

morningrunner · 08/11/2016 12:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LurkingHusband · 08/11/2016 13:10

Scotland have entered the fray:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37909299

The Scottish government is to seek to intervene against the UK government's appeal to the Supreme Court over the triggering of Article 50.
The High Court ruled last week that MPs must vote on whether the UK can start the process of leaving the EU.
The UK government immediately said it would appeal to the Supreme Court, with a hearing due next month.
The Lord Advocate, Scotland's most senior law officer, will now apply to be heard in the case.

(contd)

Am I right in my vague feeling that while Scotland and England both look to Elizabeth Windsor as their Queen, the actual thrones of England and Wales are distinct ? Could this play a constitutional part in the debate ?

Waitinginline · 08/11/2016 13:42

Wondering what David Cameron thinks, when he ponders the utter car crash he drove into then failed to stop at the scene?
He KNEW that he'd made a cock up about the a50, that's why he fucked off so quickly - after all, he'd said he'd trigger it immediately and even though he decided to resign there was nothing to prevent him triggering a50 first. No, he knew. It also explains the palaver in electing the new PM. I'm surprised anyone volunteered to step up considering what they would have realised they'd been left to deal with. He should be brought to account. Gross dereliction of duty.

LurkingHusband · 08/11/2016 13:46

Wondering what David Cameron thinks

I'm sure he's purring

jaws5 · 08/11/2016 13:46

waiting I keep wondering how DC must feel and he's either suicidal of forgotten all about it... his wife's face when he resigned, said a,lot!

SapphireStrange · 08/11/2016 13:47

David Cameron doesn't give a shiny shit about any of it.

LurkingHusband · 08/11/2016 13:58

I must admit, DC appears to have redefined the phrase "low profile" of late.

I suspect Lord Lucan has had more column inches in the past month.

Peregrina · 08/11/2016 14:02

Yes, I think technically the E/W and Scottish crowns are separate. There was some annoyance I think about her being called Elizabeth II because she is the first Elizabeth the Scots have had.

Re Cameron clearing off - I felt sorry for his two elder children as the left 10 Downing Street - they looked really upset. The little one clearly hadn't a clue what was happening.

LurkingHusband · 08/11/2016 14:12

Yes, I think technically the E/W and Scottish crowns are separate.

So what's the score if the Scottish government (representing HM QE2) find themselves diametrically opposed to the Westminster parliament (representing HM QE2) ? Or will Westminster have to pull rank, and remind the rebellious Scots who's boss ? (Idly considers googling if there's currently a "General Wade" in the armed forces).

There was some annoyance I think about her being called Elizabeth II because she is the first Elizabeth the Scots have had

Not sure why - in a QI a while back, it was stated that the English and Scottish etiquette experts (who were probably equally enthusiastic and excellent adjudicators Smile) had agreed that future regnal numbers would be base on the highest ... or something like that. Any interest I have in UK royalty is derived from history, not arslikhan.

LurkingHusband · 08/11/2016 14:15

Re Cameron clearing off - I felt sorry for his two elder children as the left 10 Downing Street - they looked really upset. The little one clearly hadn't a clue what was happening.

I'm sure in their lives of never having to worry about ESA, ATOS, PIP, benefits cap, bedroom tax, and whatever other calumnies the Tories can dream up against the poor and vulnerable, they will manage to get over it.

WifeofDarth · 08/11/2016 14:41

WRT Cameron it's not just about money. Of course he'll never have to worry about that (even if his book deal is coming in at a great deal less than he'd hoped for), it's about reputation.
I'm sure he'd wanted to leave politics in 2020 (or later) with the idea that he was one of the great Conservative leaders. But he dropped the ball. Not in a Tony Blair 'I know what I want and I'm going to get it whatever the cost' way, but a totally 'are people really that worked up about austerity?' clueless way.
So he's been shown up as a fool and he knows it.
He'll be resented by remainers forever for bringing about this situation, and by leavers for being a remainer.
I suppose he's hiding in family/friends' country estates for now, but he can't do that forever, and he isn't old. So what is he going to do for the next 30 years or so? I'm sure he envisaged a lucrative prestigious future. Lucrative may still happen. Prestigious not so sure.
I'm curious about how this will play out for him and his family as, for all his faults, I think he does have enough self awareness to feel ashamed at what his hubris has brought us.
Anyway, enough conjecture, back to the facts....(hopefully)