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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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Peaceandconnection · 08/11/2016 18:18

"Why would Leavers be angry about it?"

It's all about framing isn't it? Opting in for associate EU membership to travel across the EU without a visa sounds attractive, even to somebody who wants Brexit. It's like a freebie, the wouldn't like to feel left out. I think it's quite a brilliant suggestion, not sure how feasible but the first time in ages where being associated with the EU is spun like something people including Brxiters will want.

TheElementsSong · 08/11/2016 18:21

It's a dog in the manger thing maybe? They don't want it, but they don't want anyone else to have it either.

ClashCityRocker · 08/11/2016 18:21

I'd also love to remain an eu citizen too. Seems almost too good to be true though - will the eu have it?

It sounds like we are saying 'we want free movement of people for our lot, but don't want you lot in'..can't see them going for it.

RedToothBrush · 08/11/2016 18:30

I did say, just to troll him.

I have three kippers, two tories and three labour MEPs.

Not sure about the chances of it being passed. I don't fancy its chances to be honest. Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe has 70 seats of the 749.

Nice to see it being considered at least.

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Peaceandconnection · 08/11/2016 18:31

If Leave voters are frothing about people having the option to choose to remain associated with the EU as an individual disturbs the mob narrative that was touched upon earlier. It's all fine to join into the mob chorus of "out, out" but to make an individual choice not to benefit from FoM by not opting in for this potential EU association enters the realm of reasoning and practicality, which I don't believe vocal leave voters have given very much thought yet.

SapphireStrange · 08/11/2016 18:33

Thank you, Red!

StripeyMonkey1 · 08/11/2016 18:38

I don't think it would be unreasonable to for Europe to require us to pledge allegiance to the EU in order to be EU citizens.

PattyPenguin · 08/11/2016 18:50

Have emailed two of Wales' MEP's, PC and Labour, re EU citizenship. Not much point emailing Nathan Gill. The Tory was a Remainer - I suppose she might be worth a punt.

Peregrina · 08/11/2016 18:56

Definitely seems to be a dog in the manger attitude of the Leavers.

prettybird · 08/11/2016 19:22

Extending jaws5's point about the Hard Brexiters frothing at the mouth at the very idea about some of us choosing to maintain EU citizenship.

Seems they want "Fortress Britain" to cut both ways: we'll only let the select few in keep "them" out, but at the same time, we can't get out Hmm Walls that cannot be scaled from either side Sad

Peregrina · 08/11/2016 19:26

You'd think the Leavers would want us out - they have called us traitors etc. I would be more than happy to leave them to it.

TheElementsSong · 08/11/2016 19:29

but at the same time, we can't get out

It's the Schrödinger's Remainer thing - we are simultaneously called upon to fuck off to if we don't support Brexit, but are cowardly traitors if we do decide to leave (as mentioned on the Plan B thread).

tiggytape · 08/11/2016 19:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HummusForBreakfast · 08/11/2016 19:45

I have to say, even though I really like that idea, I also think it is a very nice way to create even more mayhem.
Not so much that it would discriminate but really how can you conduct negociations and be in a strong position when half of your population (and maybe more) is asking to stay a European citizen, with rights and representation???
more than half of the population because people who haven't voted might want to keep their European citizenship and I suspect some of the 'soft' brexiters might well want to it too

Unicornsarelovely · 08/11/2016 19:46

I was thinking about that tiggy. If there is a charge for the right to retain fom and associate membership, this could add a significant sum of money to the EU - even a million people taking it up at £100 each would give a funding boost which might help Poland / and the cost could be higher or be taken up by more people.

jaws5 · 08/11/2016 19:48

I'd like to see how many Leavers would actually claim EU nationality, many I suspect!
I very much doubt EU will grant EU citizenship to UK citizens just like that. Without reciprocity? With the UK government not paying their dues? But many middle class families will find a way, if it's there, to obtain a EU passport for their children - Irish ancestry claims are much more likely to be made by the middle class. Who will be left behind, trapped in Fortress Britain in a shrinking economy? Yes, the poor, many of whom voted to Leave.

StripeyMonkey1 · 08/11/2016 19:49

There need not be a direct large financial cost.

Maybe we could be required to attend citizenship classes and past a test showing our knowledge of EU institutions and values? That would not be so different from the current UK citizenship test.

We could also be require to swear some sort of US-style Oath of Allegiance maybe.

StripeyMonkey1 · 08/11/2016 19:50

Those values could even include respect for democracy and the rule of law. Haha.

Tanith · 08/11/2016 19:51

I'm not really surprised about Liz Truss. She's been useless in all her Government jobs to date and was in the Education department under Michael "we've had enough of experts!" Gove.

Clearly judges are also considered to be pesky, know-it-all experts that the Citizens can do without Hmm

TheElementsSong · 08/11/2016 19:53

I suspect the sticking point would be though that currently freedom of movement is a reciprocal arrangement and this would potentially make it a privilege bestowed on citizens of a non EU nation who won't offer it in return.

I agree and I can totally see why this idea wouldn't fly with other EU countries, plus also as jaws says, the not paying our dues.

But what doe this have to do with Brexiteers getting all het up? I would have thought that, if they cared at all, they'd be totally on board with the concept of both having and eating cake.

RedToothBrush · 08/11/2016 19:53

I very much doubt EU will grant EU citizenship to UK citizens just like that. Without reciprocity? With the UK government not paying their dues?
Fee for citizenship. Maintains UK relationship with EU - for the longer term

I have to say, even though I really like that idea, I also think it is a very nice way to create even more mayhem.
I suspect there is an element in that, in the creation of the bill. Its almost like a troll. Which is also why I think it will go nowhere, rather than because the EU wouldn't get reciprocity. Besides I think the UK government would probably have to agreed to it, which is a complete none starter.

There are reasons why it politically would be good for the EU to allow a one way deal. Reasons leavers wouldn't like...

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Unicornsarelovely · 08/11/2016 19:55

According to my calculator and Wikipedia, If the uk govt pays £350 million per week to the Eu and there are 65 million people in the U.K. a fee of £5.38 per person per week would provide the same funding - of course before rebates...

I'd pay that!

SwedishEdith · 08/11/2016 19:57

Liz Truss's parents were real lefties, apparently. Makes you think you just be seen to hover in the middle-ish in front of yours kids?

Yes, Woolfe, is one of my MEPs as well. Makes a change from Nick Griffin.

StripeyMonkey1 · 08/11/2016 19:59

There are reasons why it politically would be good for the EU to allow a one way deal. Reasons leavers wouldn't like...

One reason would be that it would be a massive vote of confidence in the EU. Europe could do with that right now.

Another reason is that they are likely to get the young and the "metropolitan elite" with all their contemptible abilities and skills.

Procrastin8 · 08/11/2016 20:00

i don't know off the top of my head what the current annual cost of the Eu is to each individual in the UK. I might think it was a bargain, even at twice the price?

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