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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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Nightofthetentacle · 08/11/2016 09:18

Bloody hell.

I'm not sure my nerves can take the US election and Farage-led rabble rousing in one day.

I'm able to be free on December the 5th which I think is the date of the Supreme Court hearing. Might take a wander along to the inevitable counter demonstration.

merrymouse · 08/11/2016 09:41

I'm not sure my nerves can take the US election and Farage-led rabble rousing in one day.

Unfortunately in 2016 those two things can be one and the same.

Nightofthetentacle · 08/11/2016 09:48

That made me laugh merry, bleakly.

@IanDunt
It's not every night you can sit down to watch telly where they give you a live feed of the end of Western civilisation.

jaws5 · 08/11/2016 09:50

From www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37904160
I agree merry, I am ill in bed, flu exacerbated by nerves...
Ian Dunt on twitter,
If Trump loses, Brexit will have been the high-water mark of this nativist retreat. If he wins, it was just a prologue.

Fortunately, it doesn't look like the judiciary are willing to give in to intimidation,
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37904160

The justice system could be undermined if a ruling that only Parliament can trigger Brexit is overturned, a former lord chief justice has said.
Lord Judge said it would be seen as a victory for pro-Brexit demonstrators should the Supreme Court reverse last week's controversial High Court ruling

Peaceandconnection · 08/11/2016 09:54

Palermonese I am German born and since about the age of 11 my dm has fed me with children's books dealing with the Holocaust in all sorts of way. I am a bit like your df in that I believe many people have a deep seated mob mentality. Maybe it is something primeval and tribal, who knows, but in my view only education and teaching humanitarian values and critical thinking from childhood can counteract this tribal mob mentality.

A book, which I read when I was about 14 was "The Wave": based in the US, an English teacher demonstrates to his pupils the process of who people are othered by dividing them into 'blue-eyed' and 'brown-eyed' children and stirring up hatred for one another.

www.amazon.com/Wave-Laurel-Leaf-contemporary-fiction/dp/0440993717

Sadly I am a bit of a cynic too but without a crystal ball it is impossible to see what is going to happen.

Apologies for just popping up on this thread, you are all much more eloquent than me but i am following with huge interest.

I am constantly trying to get a sense of what is going on in the world. The only thing i am sure of is that we must be in an enormous phase of transition and that no European country is in any way shape or form as it was say 20 or 30 years ago. The British tabloid media are stirring up hatred and feeding the 'mob'.

However, I have decided to do my utmost to seek, feel and foster connection with my fellow human beings, Brexiters and remainers, immigrants and brits, it doesn't matter we are all human beings, some nice than others but I feel it is important to remember ones own love and humanity so that doesn't also get swept way by the hate and bile which this country's papers and a growing number of politicians everywhere are spreading. I feel I need to actively focus on what connects us as people rather than what divides us. Sorry not sure if this makes sense.

jaws5 · 08/11/2016 10:00

you are absolutely right peace!

Nightofthetentacle · 08/11/2016 10:01

If you're in need of nerve soothing, Alain de Botton's shared this video, and it's quite effective:

We should take a measure of consolation from the example of history, that teaches us that humans have always been cruel and mad – but that civilisation has progressed nevertheless.

I think that's reassuring.

Big Hispanic turn out in US voting, which is potentially also reassuring. www.nytimes.com/2016/11/08/upshot/this-time-there-really-is-a-hispanic-voter-surge.html?

jaws5 · 08/11/2016 10:05

night thanks, off to watch that!
is there anyone this government is not pissing off? Are they useless or what?
www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/08/lowell-goddard-home-office-failed-to-defend-me-over-racism-claims

Lowell Goddard: Home Office failed to defend me over racism claims
Former chair of UK child abuse inquiry says she was ‘disappointed’ the government did not speak out against media attacks

merrymouse · 08/11/2016 10:13

mobile.twitter.com/agendaitv/status/795727474734743553

Farage claims that there was a vote to leave the single market because, although not clearly stated on your ballot paper, somebody said so on TV.

Others react, including R Peston react.

Farage is such a plonker.

LurkingHusband · 08/11/2016 10:16

A book, which I read when I was about 14 was "The Wave": based in the US, an English teacher demonstrates to his pupils the process of who people are othered by dividing them into 'blue-eyed' and 'brown-eyed' children and stirring up hatred for one another.

Anyone remember "The Tomorrow People" (kids sci-fi show) from the 1970s ?

One storyline was about (in fact it might have been called) "The Red and the Green" and it concerned a craze sweeping schools where kids wore one colour badge or the other. That was it. Obviously they fought each other. (The denouement was it was some alien plot to take control by tapping into mob mentality .... or something like that).

It's many years since I delved into deep Roman history, but I am sure I read somewhere that there was a similar craze in post republic Rome. Where young citizens would sport colours of allegiance and fight for teh colour. The colour didn't mean anything - it was an arbitrary choice.

The temptation to mention Red, Blue, and Yellow in a modern context is overwhelming, but I'll try Grin ...

Peregrina · 08/11/2016 10:21

Farage is such a plonker.

He is, but he knows how to speak and how to rouse the crowd.

jaws5 · 08/11/2016 10:22

merry what a disaster from beginning to end this is being. And Farage cynically taking advantage of the chaos. What a vile man he is, revered as a messiah by "the people"!

LurkingHusband · 08/11/2016 10:23

Farage is such a plonker.

He is, but he knows how to speak and how to rouse the crowd.

now that sounds familiar Hmm ?

RedToothBrush · 08/11/2016 10:23

Dermot Keating @dk25br
Current LC Seems to misunderstand the role and duties of the Lord chancellor - article in times today

Alan Travis ‏@alantravis40
Liz Truss said it was for Lord Chief Justice to defend the judiciary. It was pointed out that was difficult as he was one of the three judges

Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?
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RedToothBrush · 08/11/2016 10:30

ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/11/08/jeff-king-what-next-legislative-authority-for-triggering-article-50/
Good piece on What Next if the High Court judgment upheld in terms of what could happen in parliament with legislation.

^The justice system could be undermined if a ruling that only Parliament can trigger Brexit is overturned, a former lord chief justice has said.
Lord Judge said it would be seen as a victory for pro-Brexit demonstrators should the Supreme Court reverse last week's controversial High Court ruling^

I'm in two minds with this comment. On the one hand it seems political and almost urging the courts to keep the ruling to protect the law in general from mob rule (which would suggest that Farage's intension could have quite the opposite effect to the one it intends) but in doing so, also could be interpreted that the court is free to do this by being biased.

I don't think that is what he means (I think it is simply a warning) but I think that is how it could be read.

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Peaceandconnection · 08/11/2016 10:32

Could I be a bit naughty and post a link to this petition on this thread?

Fast track naturalisation for EU citizens resident in the UK longer than 5 years

[https://petition.parliament.uk/signatures/27498447/verify?token=ocvi3cwdKxXJC12tW2D]]

I will also post in in petitions but thought there maybe much more traffic here. Back to lurking.

Thanks Red for all the invaluable information. I wonder what Brexit would feel like without these threads.

Peaceandconnection · 08/11/2016 10:33

clicky link:
petition.parliament.uk/signatures/27498447/verify?token=ocvi3cwdKxXJC12tW2D

LurkingHusband · 08/11/2016 10:34

The old adage about justice not only being done, but being seen to be done springs to mind.

Bless our ancestors - they were wiser than we perhaps knew.

jaws5 · 08/11/2016 10:41

Isn't is time for a few resignations? A bit overdue imo....
Thanks peace for the link! the problem I am having is that I need to provide my passport for up to 6 months, and things are slower due to high demand!

RedToothBrush · 08/11/2016 10:43

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/08/liz-truss-confronted-by-tory-mps-handling-of-article-50-row?CMP=twt_gu
Liz Truss confronted by Tory Mps over handling of Article 50 row.

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LurkingHusband · 08/11/2016 10:43

Anyone remember "The Tomorrow People" (kids sci-fi show) from the 1970s ?

Ain't the interweb grand ? Smile

memory was almost there :

from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Tomorrow_People_serials#1970s_series ..

we get en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots

It's worth remembering that a certain B. Johnson is a classical scholar par excellence - he'd know this stuff inside out Hmm

RedToothBrush · 08/11/2016 10:45

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/nov/08/prince-harry-lambasts-press-over-meghan-markle-coverage
Prince Harry lambast press over Meghan Markle coverage.

Royal attacks ‘racial undertones’ of British press coverage of relationship with the American actor

WOW.

Yep. It is related to the whole Brexit debate and could be considered a political comment.

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Peaceandconnection · 08/11/2016 10:53

Star to Harry.

GloriaGaynor · 08/11/2016 11:00

I wrote a comment on one of the DM articles on Meghan saying that this country was too racist to accept a mixed race gf for Prince Harry and got about 1.4 billion red arrows.

The comments on her were gobsmacking even for the DM, even for the new Brexit reality.

merrymouse · 08/11/2016 11:02

I suspect that many high profile Tories are embarrassed by the government's reaction to the judgement and the general incompetence shown on Brexit. To an extent they are being given an easy ride by the lack of opposition, but I don't think May can go on like this till 2020.

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