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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
TheBathroomSink · 07/11/2016 19:25

Camilla Horrox
‏@CamillaHorrox
The 2 'mannequins' were stuffed pillows. After cutting through the bars on cell window they used a sheet to climb down #pentonvilleprison

Robert Rea
‏@robertrea Robert Rea Retweeted Camilla Horrox
Turns out those escaped prisoners didn't smuggle in mannequins to help them fool the guards, after all..

fleetstreetfox ‏@fleetstreetfox 5m5 minutes ago
fleetstreetfox Retweeted Robert Rea
I am certain I have seen this episode of Porridge before.

HyacinthFuckit · 07/11/2016 19:30

Is it possible the whole thing has been orchestrated to make it look like they are pushing for hard brexit, stirring the country up, making everyone believe they are doing what 'the people' want ? While all the while STILL not having a clue what to do. Just a thought....

That is one theory that has been advanced. Particularly as May and Johnson, at least, have no ideological commitment to hard Brexit and, whatever else one might say about them, are not stupid enough to think it would be anything other than a disaster. It's a risky little game of course, especially as it hasn't been a good year for Tories with Cunning Plans that involve sops to the lunatic fringe.

vulpeculaveritas · 07/11/2016 19:34

Whatever Davis said in the house today is rubbish tbf. If it goes to a vote parliament CAN tie the hands of the government.

Oh and the EU already know our negotiating position.

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 19:50

www.ft.com/content/01875e64-a432-11e6-8898-79a99e2a4de6
Theresa May looks to reveal more Brexit detail within weeks
PM considers mapping out broad objectives for key sectors, including financial services

Theresa May is likely to announce details of her Brexit plans for financial services and other key sectors of the UK economy within weeks, to reassure business leaders and MPs that her EU exit strategy is taking shape.

So HOW does this fit with keeping negotiation strategy secret and HOW can may guarantee this without the EU agreeing?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-secretary-david-davis-urges-mps-to-stage-their-own-vote-on-triggering-article-50-a7403436.html
Brexit Secretary David Davis urges MPs to stage their own vote on triggering Article 50
The Government will await the verdict of the Supreme Court,but Mr Davis suggested MPs could organise a vote –to show the will of the Commons

A vote about a vote on the cards.

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Peregrina · 07/11/2016 19:51

I don't think Johnson is stupid, despite the clown act. I do think May is so blinkered as to fool herself into stupidity, which is what she appears to be doing now.

I loathed Mrs Thatcher, but I think she did have a popular touch which May lacks. As the Guardian article says, she is part of a Tory party which has been intimidated.

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 20:00

Robert Colvile ‏@rcolvile
Govt will win Art 50 vote in HoC easily, Ken Clarke tells @CPSThinkTank - 'I've no idea why they're faffing about'.

OP posts:
vulpeculaveritas · 07/11/2016 20:02

Posted on another thread, but a HOC briefing document from 7 June 2015 :

Section 5 types of referendum:

This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s
continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of
2017. It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to
implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a
vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of
referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the
electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in
its policy decisions. The referendums held in Scotland, Wales and
Northern Ireland in 1997 and 1998 are examples of this type, where
opinion was tested before legislation was introduced. The UK does not
have constitutional provisions which would require the results of a
referendum to be implemented, unlike, for example, the Republic of
Ireland, where the circumstances in which a binding referendum should
be held are set out in its constitution.
In contrast, the legislation which provided for the referendum held on
AV in May 2011 would have implemented the new system of voting
without further legislation, provided that the boundary changes also
provided for in the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituency Act
2011 were also implemented. In the event, there was a substantial
majority against any change. The 1975 referendum was held after the
re-negotiated terms of the UK’s EC membership had been agreed by all
EC Member States and the terms set out in a command paper and
agreed by both Houses.64"

Pretty explicit no?

HesterThrale · 07/11/2016 23:29

Very good article by Dominic Grieve, shaming the Govt for their reaction to the a50 court ruling.
Also suggests that the 'violence of language and paranoia' could be due to the Brexiters knowing that they have a weak case based on untruths. A case of they who shout loudest have most to hide, or somesuch.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/11/brexit-court-ruling-our-government-fuels-view-politicians-act-without

LurkingHusband · 07/11/2016 23:37

A case of they who shout loudest have most to hide, or somesuch.

Why does that chill me ? Does it have a precursor from 1930s Germany ?

TuckersBadLuck · 07/11/2016 23:53

Also suggests that the 'violence of language and paranoia' could be due to the Brexiters knowing that they have a weak case based on untruths.

NO - on the whole 'the Brexiters' know no such thing, they know what their newspaper or their pals in the pub/ on Facebook/ in the bookies/ at their UKIP meeting/ etc. talk about.

Brexiter certainly doesn't = stupid - there are obviously some very clever people who support Brexit (for various reasons). However it's equally obvious that a large number of people swallowed the rubbish they were fed by the Brexit campaigners - not because they're particularly stupid, ignorant or xenophobic, but simply because they haven't got particularly enquiring minds and they swallowed the most attractive or compelling argument without conducting any research of their own.

This is the problem though isn't it? In this age of social media how do you prevent the lazy activist from just seizing on the latest popular/populist view?

TuckersBadLuck · 08/11/2016 00:01

Does it have a precursor from 1930s Germany ?
I can't believe we're even thinking about this 80 years later but it's true isn't it? I'm not sure I've got the courage of my grandfather or his brothers who were at Cable Street and in Spain though. I can't believe I'm even thinking like that.

And the sheep bastards call the EU an undemocratic dictatorship.

Peregrina · 08/11/2016 00:10

I think that people voted because in some way they expected to be better off.

Leave:
More money for the NHS - better health care, leading to better well being.
Sovereignity - a belief that EU laws had unduly harsh effects, although almost no one has been able to state which laws these are
Immigration - a belief, (mostly false), that immigrants are taking jobs and housing. And a few people just being blatantly racist, and hoping that all the Muslims would be sent packing.....
Sticking it to Cameron - a belief that his austerity policies have hit them hard so it's a way of telling him.

Remain:
Status quo equals stability.
Protection of Research Finance
Maintaining peace in N Ireland, by retaining Good Friday Agreement.
Continuing ease of travel and residence in rest of EU.

And on. As someone said, was it Mark Carney? No one voted to be worse off.

Peregrina · 08/11/2016 00:15

Does it have a precursor from 1930s Germany ?
I can't believe we're even thinking about this 80 years later but it's true isn't it?

I have often wondered why didn't people didn't realise what was happening, why didn't they do anything about it, and what would I do in the same situation?

Now I feel we are potentially in a similar position, but it's hard to get a complete view of what is happening. Why didn't they do anything? For the same reason that confronts us now, what exactly do we do about it? If we want to stand up and be counted what do we do? But better to be asking these than saying 'whatever'.

TuckersBadLuck · 08/11/2016 00:37

I have often wondered why didn't people didn't realise what was happening, why didn't they do anything about it,

Some, many, of them did. But once the tipping-point had been reached, where the totalitarian state and the 'will of the people' had come together in a perfect storm, it was easy to blot out any resistance. Blot out people.

At what point do you notice there's a problem and start to try to do something about it?

Possibly when there's a twat with stupid hair and even worse opinions who gets voted into a position of power? Or is when the masses march against judges ruling that a PM can make laws without the agreement of Parliament?

I'm being over-dramatic probably. Blush I hope so, this is 2016.

Peregrina · 08/11/2016 00:58

Tuckers - I agree. People did notice in the 1920s but other voices said, no, they were being pessimistic, they couldn't believe that Germans would behave like that. Added to that, enough people didn't care sufficiently because it hardly impinged on their daily lives and they didn't question. So, e.g. when people started disappearing they tended to believe the stories that those people had just moved away.

I visited Sachsenhausen Concentration camp once. It's at the end of a pleasant residential street which must have been there at the time. No one can tell me that they can't have been aware that something was going on there. However, when they realised, as you say, it was virtually too late.

I hope we are both being over-dramatic, and that we can learn from history and prevent it from repeating itself.

TuckersBadLuck · 08/11/2016 01:07

Hell, that's depressing for a thread with 'A New Hope' in the title! It can't happen.

mathanxiety · 08/11/2016 06:47

The US also uses web plants to comment on social media.

People didn't 'disappear' from German towns and cities. They were frequently paraded out of town in front of cheering crowds, and some towns erected signs to proudly proclaim they were 'Judenrein' ('cleansed of Jews'). Regensburg photo - The sign reads 'The Exodus of the Jews'. This was broad daylight.
Plenty of people were very much in agreement with and actively supported all that was going on.

HesterThrale · 08/11/2016 07:03

There are some parallels with the 1930s - sleepwalking into it may be one - but the orchestrators are different. This article (posted previously) is very illuminating, suggesting that the media press barons are the manipulators now:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/07/bond-traders-trots-mumsnet-left-centre-farages-mob#comments

Motheroffourdragons · 08/11/2016 07:14

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

PattyPenguin · 08/11/2016 07:17

I have no doubt that Peregrina is right and that many people voted Leave partly to protest against austerity. Not sure why austerity is going to end when public finances are likely to be £25 billiion down, mind.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37902922

Bolshybookworm · 08/11/2016 07:17

Primo Levi wrote a very angry book (the drowned and the saved) about the holocaust towards the end of his life, where he talks about his inability to forgive the German population for their permissiveness in the holocaust. Contrasts it to the Italian population which he felt were much more active in trying to protect their Jewish compatriots. It's worth reading. Also worth reading is the periodic table, where he describes the slide into fascism in Italy and its gradual encroachment into his life.

I wish more people read primo Levi Sad

merrymouse · 08/11/2016 08:27

Agree clash. Nobody knows why people voted Leave - they weren't asked.

Hard Brexit wasn't in any manifesto (except perhaps one MP UKIP?) and nobody voted for a Conservative party led by Theresa May.

Just after the referendum I was fairly hopeful that things would sort themselves out somehow. However the continued insistence by May's government that following proper process is just a ploy to frustrate Brexit is really worrying.

ImpYCelyn · 08/11/2016 08:37

On a different note: do we have an American election thread? The only one I've seen is the Trump-supporting one, and I don't really want to hang out there...

Palermonese · 08/11/2016 08:56

People did notice in the 1920s but other voices said, no, they were being pessimistic, they couldn't believe that Germans would behave like that

One of the frequent discussions in our household growing up was between my DM - who is Home Counties English, and my DF (no prizes for guessing where he hailed from) and would emerge when there was news on TV of something happening elsewhere in the world.

My DM would sagely say that the "British system" (of course now, every time we write that we have to stop and think: "Is it British, or is it English" Sad) meant you'd never see a Hitler or Mussolini in Britain.

At which point my DF would snort and say that was exactly people were saying in his fathers day - right up till some jumped up journalist tricked people into thinking he had the popular vote (he didn't*) and terrified the establishment into giving him the keys to the kingdom.

We had an interesting childhood ... and a strong part of that was my DF inculcating in myself and 2 DBs a very healthy scepticism of politics, politicians, "causes" and the power of the state against a backdrop of my DM wailing "but it's not like that here silly".

Sadly, but presciently - my DF appears to have been right.

"I don't care about any system" he would declare, "It's the people in the system - and people are the same the world over.". The nice thing about the last is my DF showed it by having friends of every color and creed. So despite a healthy scepticism to religion too, as kids we went to a lot of weddings of different cultures.

It becomes a collective madness, and it's pretty much unstoppable.

If you want an old hippies view, everything is connected to everything else. Climate change, global inequality and exploitation etc etc etc. And the bottom line is there are too many humans on the planet for it to support. Maybe this slow descent into insanity is some sort of inbuilt H. Sapiens housekeeping program being activated Hmm. We seem to have them every so often - maybe less frequently of late, but that's only because the technology to kill has got so much better.

*There was no love for Mussolini in Sicily, and his blackshirts, and when the local fascists in my DFs village tried to get the local youth to join/form the blackshirts they were given short shrift - although possibly not for high-minded ideological reasons Hmm.

jaws5 · 08/11/2016 08:59

This is how Leave.EU are respecting democracy and British law, quite worrying.They are mobilising Brexit pub punters in the other thread,

with a demonstration on this scale surely the courts will bow to the will of the people