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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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lalalonglegs · 07/11/2016 16:42

I suppose they feel that winning in the Supreme Court sets a useful precedent and gives their decision to cut out parliament legitimacy. More depressingly, I think they can't bear to be seen to lose or show anything but a fanatical zeal for implementing A50 - accepting the ruling could be seen to be agreeing that Brexit needs to be debated and that's become a heresy. (No legal expertise there, just hunch.)

lalalonglegs · 07/11/2016 16:43

Oooh, so it's all a bluff? That could explain why their arguments at the first hearing were seen as quite flimsy... Interesting...

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 16:43

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Davis says abuse heaped on Gina Miller may be illegal as it's incitement to violence.

A few prosecutions wouldn't go amiss here.

Agreed with Dunt. Court warned this at conclusion of the hearing before the ruling was made.

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Davis hilarious warning against naivety in negotiation. You mean like handing over leverage on timing without securing anything in return?

Or like revealing your aims at the Tory conference then saying you must not reveal your aims in case it weakens your position?

Or like failing to understand the legal system in which you operate, the consequences of failure, or how your negotiating partner?

Because sustained amateurishness like that would be really troubling.

More nonsense about not "boxing in" Theresa May. She went on stage and announced no more obstruction with British policy on food labelling or the WTO. She does a very fine job boxing herself in without anyone's help.

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
In answers to questions from @hilarybennmp and @NickyMorgan01, it appears government may rush a Bill forward after SC defeat.

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Mistigri · 07/11/2016 16:47

Oooh, so it's all a bluff? it's a theory that explains quite well why they are pursuing a dead end court case when labour has already all but promised to roll over and play dead if the tories bring an A50 bill to parliament.

That could explain why their arguments at the first hearing were seen as quite flimsy no, I think this was just plain incompetence!

Unicornsarelovely · 07/11/2016 16:49

I'm a lawyer but don't particularly understand the govt's decisions on this!

I would expect that they feel they have to proceed with the appeal because of a) lost face that they're in this position and b) there is some chance of success in the Supreme Court. The Court will consider the appeal on the basis of whether or not the High Court erred on a point of law, so not appealing means accepting the limits of the prerogative as set out in the High Court.

However, the Supreme Court is the ultimate judicial authority in the UK (the ECJ advises on the interpretation of EU legislation which parliament is then obliged to comply with) so an adverse decision would be actually a pretty major blow to TM et al.

I also think we have had an extended period of the Executive seizing power without parliamentary scrutiny - since 1997 at least there has been a huge increase in legislation which is enabling and the detail is subject to regulations made by the relevant Secretary of State - the regulations are not subject to Parliamentary oversight but can certainly push the boundaries of the enabling legislation to the absolute limit. This is the first really high profile opportunity for the courts to push back on the limits of executive power.

If I were advising her, I would have strongly encouraged her not to let it get this far and come up with a way to let Parliament have a vote on it before it went to court at all. The absolute worst case scenario for TM is for the Supreme Court to agree with the High Court as this will set a permanent limit on executive power unless Parliament passes legislation to limit their own authority.

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 16:51

or is it just to win the principle of having the power to use the prerogative overall?

That's one thing. its very useful. It was always an argument against testing the extent of the prerogative in court in the first place.

The other is protecting May herself and her political clout.

And yeah to cut the power of parliament itself seems like another reason to pursue it.

Rowena Kay @rowena_kay
@IanDunt the power in any negotiation comes from being able to walk away from the table as a last resort. We've ruled that out.

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Indeed. Also, penalties of failure within harsh time frame weigh more heavily on junior partner. V.disadvantageous negotiating position.

V.interesting. Davis implies he demanded govt lawyers say A50 non-reversible. So case fell apart on his intervention.

(Which happens to be probably false and also a political rather than a legal statement.)

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TuckersBadLuck · 07/11/2016 17:05

Davis implies he demanded govt lawyers say A50 non-reversible. So case fell apart on his intervention

It was obvious that was what was going on wasn't it? Didn't you say as much?

Now that issue wasn't looked at because both parties agreed on the matter - that it was non-reversible.

Can the Supreme Court decide to take it upon themselves to examine the point even if neither party makes the claim? It would after all decide the case if A50 was reversible.

And if it did decide to examine that has the Supreme Court got the power to rule on whether A50's reversible anyway or is it outside their jurisdiction?

I'm wincing, no cringing, at the shit-storm that would be kicked up if it had to go to the ECJ for a ruling.

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 17:07

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
1. Some thoughts on the current Article 50 mess.
2. The government, acting prudently, would not bank everything on a successful appeal at the Supreme Court.
3. Whilst some well-regarded legal pundits say there is a chance of a successful SC appeal, the odds are against it.
4. Therefore the government should have published this week a draft, narrow Bill to give it power to invoke Article 50.
5. Joking aside, it need not be mush more than this one tweeted earlier.

Here you go:

BILL

1. The Crown shall have the power to make:

(a) a decision; and

(b) a notification,

under Article 50(1) and (2).
6. Davis's answers today suggest that there is a back-up plan in case they lose, to rush a bill through between January and March.
7. But, and this is important, there is no good reason whatsoever why such a draft Bill could not be published this week.
8. Publication of such a draft Bill would not influence the Supreme Court one iota. The litigation would be completely unaffected.

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham
@Lawandpolicy I agree they can. I agree it causes no prejudice to their prospects in the Supreme Court. I can't figure out why they won't.

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
9. So a deliberate decision has been made not to show parliamentarians and voters what the contingency plan is.
10. There can be no good reason for this. It is just yet more game-playing tactics, rather than a broadly based, open approach to Brexit.
11. Brexit is so complex a task, it can only be done in an open and collaborative way.
12. The "poker cards" analogies for secrecy are daft. They are really excuses about dogs eating homework.
13. The government still has not learned from its mistakes so far on Brexit. Secrecy and bull-headedness are not enough.
14. If the government wins at Supreme Court then: fine.
15. But if the government does not: then a disorganised rush in January to March, at the very time, things need to be businesslike and calm.
16. If there is to be Brexit, the government needs to start taking it far more seriously. This is kid-like politics.

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
We have prisoners for mannequins, and Brexit for dummies.

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merrymouse · 07/11/2016 17:08

Assuming May is vaguely intelligent, maybe she has already been advised that this judgement would be likely, and is just playing the whole thing out so that she can't in any way be accused of being a secret remainers (given her stance in the referendum). However, I'm losing faith in the government's intelligence.

Tory MP Julian Lewis: "If the referendum result had gone the other way, Leavers like me would have unequivocally accepted it"

Really?

"Yes, I know the government has decided to go for a really, really soft Brexit and adopt the Euro by March, but I can't say anything - the people have spoken. It's not up to me to decide what remaining should look like, I'm just an MP - it's a ceremonial role really!"

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 17:16

Tuckers, the Supreme Court, from what I have read the last couple of days from constitutional lawyers is the Supreme Court could produce a ruling which says neither yes nor no.

Instead it could lay out circumstances in which a50 could be Royal Prerogative and which it can not.

This to me, would seem the most sensible move by the court to avoid political issues and attacks on it and the rule of law more generally.

So I would not be surprised if this happens if they think the base of the original ruling is sound.

The way I see that happening is if the court recommends the government take certain actions - like saying the government must consider a referral to the ECJ rather putting the decision and power firmly in the hands of the government to make the political decision themselves, rather than to assist on it.

This way it plonks the nasty ECJ possibility firmly on the lap on the government to decide either way. (Whilst also potentially leaving the door open for someone else to take up later, if the government decide not to take up the choice).

John Springford ‏@JohnSpringford
The UK's negotiating position is known: what is less known is how it will trade off competing objectives. Govt secrecy is to stop Tory split

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RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 17:21

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Davis says it's impossible to work out what Lab wants. He's right. Lab says it's impossible to work out what he's doing. They're right.

No-one has any idea what the fuck they're doing.

And with that, the debate comes to an end. I advise you to get drunk now.

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Motheroffourdragons · 07/11/2016 17:28

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Kaija · 07/11/2016 17:31

There are some suggestions of that from various replies in that law and policy Twitter thread, mother. It's one explanation.

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 17:34

They don't have a clue. They could manage the situation better, whilst still looking like they wanted hard brexit and not having a clue though.

So the conclusion is therefore still that they are incompetent.

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Kaija · 07/11/2016 17:36

"Dogs eating homework" excuses

Motheroffourdragons · 07/11/2016 17:43

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

lalalonglegs · 07/11/2016 17:51

I think Paul Mason has been reading the Westminstenders threads. In his Gdn column he calls for a Cable St-style counter-march to Farage's disgusting 100,000 gathering. "That means bond traders from Canary Wharf, arm in arm with placard-carrying Trots. Masked-up Kurdish radicals alongside Mumsnet posters..." Grin

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 17:55

Hi Paul!

waves

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RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 18:03

Ian Ericson ‏@iperic
@Lawandpolicy I think Brexit has shown the lack of skills our politicians actually have. They’ve been raised on a diet of junk politics.

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RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 18:29

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/07/bond-traders-trots-mumsnet-left-centre-farages-mob
Bond traders, Trots and Mumsnetters must unite against Farage’s mob
Paul Mason

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Grifone · 07/11/2016 18:34

RTB if that isn't a sign that there is a wider audience out there who would really benefit from a blog of your posts I don't know what is! Please, please do Grin

TheNorthRemembers · 07/11/2016 18:46

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Silly Grayling, banning books in prisons instead of life-size mannequins.

This made my day. Sadly I can't get drunk today, Ian Dunt. Too busy booking my ticket for the counter-march...

Kaija · 07/11/2016 18:53

I've been saying since about May this year that I really don't want to have to go and fight fascists in the street. But it's happening isn't it. Fuckers.

Kaija · 07/11/2016 18:57

Looking forward to meeting the "masked-up Kurdish radicals" though. I think.

Palermonese · 07/11/2016 19:03

I've been saying since about May this year that I really don't want to have to go and fight fascists in the street. But it's happening isn't it. Fuckers.

My grandfather did it for real, and saw people shot for their troubles Sad.