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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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Peregrina · 07/11/2016 09:11

I may have spotted a unicorn. Mrs May has gone to India to talk about trade deals.

It includes this choice gem:
May used her speech to the tech summit to insist she wanted an open relationship with India, laying out plans for India to become the first visa country to be put on a registered traveller scheme which helps speed up the experience of visitors in British airports.

“That means for Indian nationals who frequently come to the UK – and who fuel growth in both our countries – the entry process will become significantly easier. Fewer forms to fill out, access to EU/EEA passport control, swifter passage through our airports,” she said.
Bolding mine.

Whoops. EU/EEA passport control? Does this square with her having told Nissan that we will go for soft Brexit, or is this the unicorn? We could keep our own EU/EEA passport controls, even without it being reciprocated, but how will this stop freedom of movement?

LurkingHusband · 07/11/2016 09:39

It's just worth noting that it seems to be C21st Tory party strategy to promise now, and worry about the "later" .... well later.

There are a lot of balls in the long grass right now.

PattyPenguin · 07/11/2016 10:02

Peregrina would TM's idea mean that we would have three queues / gates at ports / airports - UK passport holders, EU/EEA passport holders (inc. these Indian frequent visitors) and Rest of the World?

Peregrina · 07/11/2016 10:09

You tell me Patty - I have no idea what goes on in TM's head, but that would be a logical position. I suppose it would be Relabelled as 'Favoured Travellers' or some such, and guaranteed to piss others off even more. But hey, why does that matter? Theresa May has told them the country is open for business, so it must be so.

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 10:09

Rice Crispie I don't know how possible this is as I'm not a law expert, but I would have thought that the Supreme Court in theory could rule that in line with our constitution a50 can not be triggered by Royal prerog for X reasons if a50 is not reversible. But if its reversible then it can be used and recommend the government refer to the ECJ to determine if they still wish to use the royal prerog.

It then would put the ball in the government's court to make the decision of how they wish to proceed.

I'm sure it would be taken badly but as a point of law there probably wouldn't be a lot wrong with such a ruling.

As I say I don't know if this is possible as I don't quite know how rulings / referrals to the ECJ work exactly. I would have thought that they can say a50 can be used if certain criteria are reached though rather than a straight out yes or no and the ECJ route would be the most obvious example of that to me.

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LurkingHusband · 07/11/2016 10:09

I wonder what pressure there is on the Brexit bunch to prevent a situation where UK visitors to the EU will end up in the "Rest of the world" channel, and have to queue, whilst the rest of Europe sail by ?

Maybe they'll tell travellers it's jealousy over our blue passports ?

PattyPenguin · 07/11/2016 10:20

I wonder whether they will just add India to the list of countries whose passport holders can join (for a fee) the Registered Travellers service?
www.gov.uk/registered-traveller

Members of the scheme can already use UK and EU/EEA lanes at major airports.

Peregrina · 07/11/2016 10:27

I suppose that they would just relabel the Gates: UK + Favoured Travellers.
I just thought it ironic that TM was talking about EU/EEA, without apparently stopping to think about what she was saying.

LurkingHusband · 07/11/2016 10:27

Members of the scheme can already use UK and EU/EEA lanes at major airports.

and post Brexit ?

LurkingHusband · 07/11/2016 10:58

Seems Indians have a long memory ... Theresa May may not be as welcome as she thinks ...

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10423913/Mays-3000-security-bond-for-African-and-Asian-visitors-dropped.html

Seems they are still insulted by this - quite aside from the UK leaving the EU ...

InformalRoman · 07/11/2016 11:03

On another note, did anyone hear Keir Starmer being interviewed on R4 this morning? He was saying that whilst Labour won't frustrate the Article 50 vote they will be demanding to be able to debate The Plan. And he also said that there are 48% of people out there who need to be heard as well.

PattyPenguin · 07/11/2016 11:06

On a different tangent, I wonder whether anyone is looking at the Pan Euro Med zone / cumulation / thingy.

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 11:07

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/06/nigel-farage-to-lead-100000-strong-march-on-supreme-court-on-day/
Farage to lead 100,000-strong march on Supreme Court on day of historic Brexit court hearing

So Farage sounds like he might be a) worried b) trying to intimidate c) its all one gigantic bluff

What (or who) does this sound awfully like?

Jess Phillips MP ‏@jessphillips
Nigel Farage calling for people to get "even". This man is a hate fuelling coward. He doesn't give a toss about people or democracy.

indeed,

Jerry Hayes ‏@jerryhayes1
Farage now saying he doesn't believe in Parliamentary sovereignty just sovereignty of the people. Sounds very Soviet

So much for every comment about British law and British judges and British parliament he's ever made.

It all starts to come into focus doesn't it?

Anyway, we shall see. As David Allen Green points out:
Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Nigel Farage will now get to know what is like trying to motivate law students to visit a court on a cold winter's day. Good luck.

I don't believe that any of the pro-EU marches after the referendum got anywhere near 100,000 to turn up.

This was in the middle of Summer.

The 5th Nov Anonymous 'Million Man March' only attracted around 20,000. On a weekend.

So mid week, during the day, the first week in Dec when people have other things on their mind?

It does led me on to something else Mistrigri said on another thread, which I was going to comment on last night. Why might riot?

The London Riots were triggered by a particular event and were quite spontaneous with people joining in elsewhere later AFTER there had been an initial spark. It was an issue that a large number of people concentrated in a small area had very strong feelings and awareness of.

lljkk suggested angry radio 5 might riot.

lljkk then said though that they had come out with rather random comments like: "I thought we left Europe already!", which begs the question about just how much political awareness there is.

Are these people really as politically motived as in the spark for the London riots? They are all spread out throughout the country really. They need someone to organise them don't they?

So up steps Farage. But even then he is going to need a lot of support from the media for this march.

Local Labour Party groups have complained that they been able to convert their new membership post Corbyn from arm chair supporters to people who actually do things.

Indeed, UKIP themselves have had something of a problem of establishing themselves at council level due the same reasons as Labour have had.

Then you look at who his supporters are - older people (not generally known for being protesters), less well off working people (not generally able to afford or have the time to protest), people on benefits (not generally able to afford or have the motivation to protest), people from Northern England (not going to happen is it) and people from Kent etc which have UKIP strong holds (possible but still a bit of a stretch) given the fact that the march is planned in Remain heartland of London.

If the young and students who are traditional protesters don't come out for Remain, will people who don't normally protest come out for Brexit?

He might manage it. He might get a huge march together and then we should start to get really scared as he's effectively leading an out and out revolt movement and encouraging mob rule. This is a threat to May even if she does trigger a50 by royal prerogative and does push through Brexit.

And there is a flip side to this. What if Farage doesn't get his march together? How does that change the game? Are people who are worried about such protests going to be as scared? Does it raise the question of whether Farage is out of touch with his people too?

Robert Nisbet ‏@RobNisbetSky
@BethRigby breaks news that government is preparing a bill (not a resolution) to trigger Article 50, despite appeal, to hit March timetable.

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Here you go:

BILL

1. The Crown shall have the power to make:

(a) a decision; and

(b) a notification,

under Article 50(1) and (2).

And you start to think, hmmm are the government going to drop their appeal? And why would they do that if they are so confident of winning and if parliament is not important and the rule of law is not important to maintain? Did someone panic and has been trying to figure a way out of a potentially explosive situation?
(and did Farage have wind of this and so his threats were made in the full knowledge that he wouldn't have to find 100,000 people to intimidate but can still scare people with the mere prospect of it?)

Hmmm....

(Incidentally such a worded bill - very very difficult to oppose even if you want to. SNP and NI parties probably only ones who legitimately can. It does however assert parliament's importance and role in the process, which is very important to re-establish at this moment in time).

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LurkingHusband · 07/11/2016 11:14

Who'd have thunk it ? Benito Farage ?

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 11:32

Beth Rigby ‏@BethRigby (From 2hrs ago)
@Keir_Starmer clear that Labour "won't frustrate the process" of triggering #article50 but also says a minimal resolution "won't work"

Labour Whips ‏@labourwhips
2 statements from 3.30pm - your guess is as good as ours on actual titles 1. High Court Judgement @DavidDavisMP/@Keir_Starmer 2. Defence

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Looks like there will be a House of Commons statement today on the Article 50 High Court decision.

Who wants to bet on the appeal being dropped by Davis and Labour will support the passage of an article 50 bill through parliament by Starmer?

I smell the whiff of something of a deal / backroom talking having been done here between Labour and the Conservatives. One that Corbyn wasn't fully involved with nor able to give appropriate wording publically on with the intended affect and Watson/Starmer/Benn were (because they were involved working out Labour's position).

Suggestion by Starmer though that Labour do intend to make some kind of amendment to get assurances if bill very short. But overall key point that Corbyn marginalised on this and consulted rather than leading the issue.

Got to ask then, who is really now leading Labour if this is indeed the case? Corbyn is coming out of this as a figure head rather than the one with the power behind the scenes

Meanwhile, attorney general and lead for the government's a50 defence, stands up for the judges

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/07/attorney-general-jeremy-wright-defends-judges-criticised-brexit-ruling?CMP=share_btn_tw
I note though, that he still is talking of an appeal.

Either way, it doesn't sound like the government thinks they will win on appeal (and perhaps are considering abandoning it for this reason, or in case there is a chance that the courts recommend a referral to the ECJ somehow to establish a50 reversibility, and this is a situation they are scared of) and the wheels are very much in motion to go through parliament anyway.

Could be wrong, but that's what it all stinks of to me.

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Unicornsarelovely · 07/11/2016 11:39

It's an interesting point Red. If o were May, I wouldn't want to go the Supreme Court (especially with labour's statements). High court is persuasive and has effect but only until s superior court overruled it. Supreme Court is absolute until changed by parliament.

I keep reading about his the people will revolt and march etc. According to history (!) no wars ever really happened between September and March because of harvests and cold. I find it very difficult to believe that concerted marches/ riots etc will happen before about may especially given the make up of the most keen brexiteers and the well known tactics of the police - not fun to be kettled for 8 hours and risk missing Emmerdale.

LurkingHusband · 07/11/2016 11:43

I keep reading about his the people will revolt and march etc.

Not in England. Last time that was tried was 1381.

The English just don't do revolutions. Bloodless coups - yes. Just ask Theresa May.

SwedishEdith · 07/11/2016 11:46

I think Labour are mostly just ignoring Corbyn. It seems to be the only way to get anything done.

Did I read on here or was it Twitter that Kate Hoey would join Farage on his March Against Democracy? She's 70 so I wonder if she'll stand down at the next election.

lalalonglegs · 07/11/2016 11:47

But surely the "opposition" (quote marks used intentionally) won't just accede to a bill that leaves very little room for scrutiny and/or debate? I heard this being proposed on the 10am news and the announcer - BBC, unsensationalist - said words to the effect of "It's a risky strategy by the government as it could be open to another high court challenge".

lalalonglegs · 07/11/2016 11:50

I agree, Swedish, it is a pyrrhic victory for Momentum: JC got to keep his position as leader of the Labour Party but he is going to be cut out of important decision-making as much as possible as he simply isn't up to the job.

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 11:55

Worth saying HoC has three days off this week (Wed - Fri), so only sitting today and tomorrow so should go a bit quieter in the UK this week, whilst we all go a bit mental over what happens Stateside.

As a side point, the rule of law is rather an important issue right about now as there is a huge rather important and sensitive trial is scheduled.

The provisional trial date for Thomas Meir was Monday 14 November so if that is still the case, we have that to look forward to, together will all the delightful politicised commentary around it.

Of course it doesn't take a genius to work out the timing couldn't be worse. It does illustrate that May does need the courts to be seen as independent for whatever the outcome of that particular case because it also plays into the whole Brexit debate whether you like it or now. Its unavoidably going to have an affect on the dynamics of what's going on.

I already wonder if there is going to be a problem with the trial as the question of whether Meir can have fair trial in such a politically charged atmosphere rears its ugly head.

It really would be preferable for the case to be postponed until after Christmas (and conclusion of the a50 stuff) tbh for that reason.

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SwedishEdith · 07/11/2016 11:57

I know this has been going round on Twitter so I had a brief look at the FB page (Brexit First) - mostly because I was curious to see the replies. Didn't find the actual post but saw enough talking about using the gun etc. But what was also interesting were how many posts were started by one person posting from Russia (from a Moscow suburb, according to Google maps).

Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?
Peregrina · 07/11/2016 12:01

no wars ever really happened between September and March

I have heard of the summer being referred to as 'the fighting season'. When WW2 was declared we had a six month period or so of Phoney war.

I suppose Farage might get a turn out if it's mild. Let's hope for a gale, or a snowstorm. Then we will see how brave his warriors are. Now at the Greenham Common protest on 12th December 1982, women did turn out. I was there with my nearly 4 year old daughter. We were made of sterner stuff then.

Unicornsarelovely · 07/11/2016 12:04

What happened to the water cannon? That could be fairly devastating in December.

flippinada · 07/11/2016 12:04

Swedish there was an interesting article about that in the Guardian the other day - Russian "plants" on social media. Apparently it's quite the industry over there.