Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Peregrina · 07/11/2016 12:07

Ah now, didn't TM stop BoJo using water cannon when he was Mayor of London? It would be an irony of ironies if she used them herself. I don't think she can; didn't they get sent back to Germany? Who would she use them on - Farage's mob? He is giving her the backing she needs at the moment.

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 12:11

Sam Needs @sam_needs
@Lawandpolicy Possible that the appeal will be dropped and the bill drafted?

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Unlikely. More likely the two in tandem.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 12:13

Conor James McKinney ‏@mckinneytweets
Criminal Bar Association's take on criticism of judges over Article 50 case hints that such attacks could be labelled 'extremism'

Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?
OP posts:
PattyPenguin · 07/11/2016 12:14

*flippinada" the Russian commenters are known, apparently, as the "web brigades". The Chinese equivalent used to be known as '50 centers".

whatwouldrondo · 07/11/2016 12:25

Flippinada I have posted this before but some insight in the 50 centers. www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2012/10/china’s-paid-trolls-meet-50-cent-party They are very active on any China stories in U.K. Newspapers. This suggests some are very sophisticated though there are a few who crop up repeatedly with western names who whilst their English is perfect and in the vernacular do give themselves away a bit with their fervent unquestioning support for the CCP line.

RedToothBrush · 07/11/2016 12:28

ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/11/07/mark-elliot-and-hayley-hooper-critical-reflections-on-the-high-courts-judgment-in-r-miller-v-secretary-of-state-for-exiting-the-european-union/

Mark Elliott and Hayley J. Hooper: Critical reflections on the High Court’s judgment in R (Miller) v Secretary of State for Exiting the EuropeanUnion

news.sky.com/story/govt-already-drafting-brexit-trigger-bill-10648882
Government already drafting Brexit Article 50 bill
Theresa May gears up the Government machine so she can be ready to hit her own March deadline for officially triggering Brexit.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-would-hit-ireland-harder-than-britain-8h9xbxnz8
Hard Brexit would hurt Ireland more than UK

Second study to say the same. Apparently Open Britain came to same conclusion way back in 2015.

OP posts:
flippinada · 07/11/2016 12:33

Thanks Patty and whatwouldrondo

I'm not entirely surprised to hear this is a thing after some of the posts I've read here on the US election, knowing how keen Putin is on Trump. I'll see if I can dig out the article.

SwedishEdith · 07/11/2016 12:47

Yes, very interesting about state interference in other state's elections (I'm sure it works both ways). And agree about something in the almost perfect English giving them away. The Brexit First poster is called John Simpson. Grin

Mistigri · 07/11/2016 12:59

Re Nige's protest (sorry no time to read all the posts) I think it will be a damp squib unless the BNP turn up. Most rabid social media brexiteers are overweight elderly blokes who have taken up Twitter late in life (the ones that aren't, are mostly putinbots/ trumpbots).

PattyPenguin · 07/11/2016 13:14

Well, this is rather good.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/07/brexit-cps-considers-complaint-that-leave-campaigns-misled-voters

"The director of public prosecutions is considering a complaint that voters were misled by the Vote Leave and Leave.EU campaigns, in contravention of electoral law.

The complaint about “undue influence” on the referendum campaign has been submitted by an independent group, spearheaded by Prof Bob Watt, an expert in electoral law from the University of Buckingham.

Though most cases require a police complaint before evidence can be considered by the Crown Prosecution Service, under the 1983 Representation of the People Act the DPP can consider cases of election offences when they are referred to her office directly.

A CPS spokesperson said: “We can confirm that this letter has been received and we are currently considering its content.” The complaint is being considered by the special crime team, which deals with all election offences."

More at link.

Mistigri · 07/11/2016 13:15

Searched "brexit" on Twitter, first three rabid pro-brexit posts were from

  • guy in the Midlands who posts in ALL CAPS
  • someone with deplorable in his handle who runs a U.S. based site
  • a group called "traditional Britain" whose website suggests that the average age of their members is about 80

I didn't count the guy in Alabama who was just retweeting pro brexit news reports.

Mistigri · 07/11/2016 13:15

^ I'd love to see Nige organise a riot with that lot!

SapphireStrange · 07/11/2016 13:21

Patty, oooh, I shall follow that with interest!

Nightofthetentacle · 07/11/2016 13:22

Just swooping in to say thanks again for these marvellous threads.

misti I believe that rather STRONG COMMUNICATION STYLE is quite common in certain circles, and as a result is known as FASH [fascist] CAPS. Must be devilish hard to get your spelling right.

Mistigri · 07/11/2016 13:24

I might be wrong, but I would guess that Mr. All Caps in the Midlands is highly unlikely to pitch up outside the supreme court on a cold December day.

TheNorthRemembers · 07/11/2016 13:25

We are lucky only to have the Web brigade.

In Hungary a policeman was killed in cold blood
observer.com/2016/10/putins-support-for-europes-far-right-just-turned-lethal

There is along some weird thing going on in Montenegro with Prime Minister Djukanovich and some would be assassins, who claim to be pilgrims and some free mobile phones as evidence. I honestly did not get it. Just that the assassination plan was allegedly financed by Russians.

GloriaGaynor · 07/11/2016 13:32

The current DPP is a wet fish, the chances of her following through are almost nil.

SwedishEdith · 07/11/2016 13:35

I thought ALL CAPS was FOTL bolleaux? I suspect a significant crossover between them and Kippers.

Kaija · 07/11/2016 13:40

I hope this is right that Farage's march will be a damp squib.

This looks a lot like the start of the mobilisation of the 1million leave.eu subscribers that Arron Banks has been threatening. Remember his little stunt with the flags and the last night of the proms.

God knows what kind of communications they have been sending out, and in what volume, and what they're doing now to to ramp it up.

flippinada · 07/11/2016 13:41

I too would be interested to see who would turn up for Nigel Farage's Brexit March. I'm imagining a sea of pastel golfing sweaters and sensible hairdos converging on Parliament.

Peregrina · 07/11/2016 13:47

No, I would imagine tattoo'd shaven headed thugs.

SapphireStrange · 07/11/2016 14:08

Gloria, I didn't know that. Can the public lobby her/the CPS?

TheBathroomSink · 07/11/2016 14:10

I thought ALL CAPS was FOTL bolleaux?

Yes, but there's also a significant crossover with people who just don't know where their capslock key is...

Anyway, I expect Farage to be a bit distracted for the next few weeks either setting himself up as 'The Brit Perspective' on Fox, angling for a job with Trump or getting constantly rat-arsed to drown his sorrows.

GlassOfPort · 07/11/2016 14:11

As we are on the subject of rabble rousing, I thought I would share this 38degrees petition to have the Daily Fail banned from BA flights

you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/get-british-airways-to-remove-the-daily-mail-as-a-free-newspaper-on-flights

It makes a lot of sense to me

GloriaGaynor · 07/11/2016 14:26

It's not a fact, simply my opinion.

People do lobby the CPS - the Kingsley Burrell protest for example.

But it won't make any difference. The CPS make decisions based on evidential requirements not public feeling.

I think Saunders will just do as she's told.

She's been rightly criticised for her dealings with cases of rape and sexual assault. Although not directly relevant, this is in contrast to Starmer's record, and indicate (to me) she is not someone likely to rock the boat or take a moral lead.

Very happy to be proved wrong.