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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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Mistigri · 06/11/2016 21:16

North I might be wrong, of course ;) You are relying on the opinion of someone who is wrong for a living (I'm a forecaster).

vulpeculaveritas · 06/11/2016 21:16

I'm assuming the worst for Tuesday.

Mistigri · 06/11/2016 21:22

There is still a risk, but I think some media (including, sadly, the formerly interesting fivethirtyeight) are talking up the Trump risk for clicks. Most poll aggregators put Clinton's chances much higher and one reliable election researcher (Sam Wang at Princeton: election.princeton.edu) puts her chances at >98%.

That's not to say it can't go pearshaped, but the polling in the US election is much less equivocal than the brexit polling which was known to be problematic.

lalalonglegs · 06/11/2016 21:24

Ha ha - great clip, North. For those who are fans of Anthony Weiner (or just fascinated by his zeal for self-destruction) the documentary about his ill-fated run for New York mayor is currently being shown on BBC4. DH and I paid good money to cringe through it in the cinema this summer. Viva Carlos Danger!

lalalonglegs · 06/11/2016 21:26

I'm assuming that people are talking up the Trump late surge as a way of getting reluctant Hillary voters out - once it looks like she might win comfortably, a lot of people who really don't like her very much will stay away. That's what I'm hoping anyway...

jaws5 · 06/11/2016 21:26

Red It has got to the stage where I like more Tory MPs than Labour Thanks! I thought that I was gonna through a serious existential crisis, now I see I'm not alone! Grin
My American friends are relaxed but nervous.... hopefully those polls are right mistigri

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2016 21:26

hard, soft, chaotic.

try long brexit

www.ft.com/content/b558b024-a29c-11e6-82c3-4351ce86813f
Theresa May pitches for a ‘long’ Brexit
The UK prime minister appears to prefer an extended transition period out of the EU

Prison Riot at Bedford.
Maybe this is what happens when Liz Truss is in charge...

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RedToothBrush · 06/11/2016 21:30

Mistigri Sun 06-Nov-16 21:16:20
North I might be wrong, of course ;) You are relying on the opinion of someone who is wrong for a living (I'm a forecaster).

Things not to admit on MN.
"I'm a forecaster."

Someone will remember this, and remind you of it.

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TheNorthRemembers · 06/11/2016 21:30

Gloria We have already all lost just by having to live through this election. Why would anyone put us through this spectacle?!

Ok, so Mistigri you reminded me of my favourite pollster. (I understand you forecast, not poll, but still.) I have put my big girl pants on and checked out Nate Silver's website fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-dont-ignore-the-polls-clinton-leads-but-its-a-close-race/

All of this data is nevertheless consistent with Clinton being an Electoral College favorite. She has a 64 percent chance of winning the Electoral College in our polls-only model and 65 percent in polls-plus, putting her somewhere in the range of being a 2-1 favorite.

At the same time, it shouldn’t be hard to see how Clinton could lose. She’s up by about 3 percentage points nationally, and 3-point polling errors happen fairly often, including in the last two federal elections. Obama beat his polls by about 3 points in 2012, whereas Republicans beat their polls by 3 to 4 points in the 2014 midterms. If such an error were to favor Clinton, she could win in a borderline landslide. If the error favored Trump, however, she’d be in a dicey position, because the error is highly correlated across states.

Mistigri · 06/11/2016 21:47

North go read this thread and particularly this comment:

election.princeton.edu/2016/11/05/confidence-is-associated-with-increased-turnout/#more-18547

I am coming around more and more to the belief that these are less real moves and more indications of willingness of people to respond to pollsters. People are more likely to respond when the candidate of their choosing is on the positive side of media attention or as has happened more often in this strange election, the opposing candidate is on the negative side.

It's a discussion about whether movements in the US polling are "real", or whether the apparent changes in support for the candidates are simply measurement artefacts, and that the best estimate of the real value is the median. I think the argument that most people made up their minds months ago is particularly valid in this US election and that the Sam Wang approach is therefore much more valid than the fivethirtyeight model which is excessively sensitive to new poll data.

lalalonglegs · 06/11/2016 21:47

Bananagio - I was living in Italy during mani pulite so you've been there a while. Iirc, there was a health minister (something de Lorenzo?) who was discovered not only to have embezzled the equivalent of millions of pounds from an AIDS charity but was also taking bribes of many more millions from pharmaceutical companies to license drugs and therapies. Shock

So, yes, Italy is used to just going about its business as much as possible without reliance on its MPs and I think very few Italians I know would conflate entry into politics with public service. Whereas, in the UK, however naively, we do think that politicians should be working for the greater good and we feel very let down when they it becomes obvious that their motives might not be quite so pure. I've had a couple of Italians email me over the past few months really shocked and disappointed by, not only Brexit, but the way the government has behaved since - they expected better of us Sad.

Mistigri · 06/11/2016 21:52

I should say north and RTB that my forecasting work is nothing like this (I do boring long term strategy stuff around supply/demand of critical materials). But it means I have some professional experience in what makes a good model. One that jumps around all over the place like fivethirtyeights is probably double counting something.

LurkingHusband · 06/11/2016 21:58

mani pulite

I've heard the phrase pulito palazzo before now Hmm as I recall, not in a good way ...

PattyPenguin · 06/11/2016 21:58

The "Long Brexit" story is on the Grauniad website also
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/06/ministers-press-for-interim-eu-deal-to-avoid-article-50-cliff-edge

I don't see how this would work. Once A50 is triggered, all concerned have two years to sort things out, unless there is unanimous agreement amongst the 27 to extend the negotiations. Are every single one of the 27 going to let the UK take all the time it wants? Really?

NotDavidTennant · 06/11/2016 22:02

The odds on a Clinton win have substantially shortened since the FBI confirmed there was nothing in the emails. I'm sure I'll live to regret these words, but I think it's hers to lose now.

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2016 22:08

Mistri, yougov said something similar with regard to polling.

They noticed that after the Trump pussygate people were reluctant to admit they intended to vote for him, but this corrected itself after a while. They have observed the same thing with Clinton when the last email gate blew.

today.yougov.com/news/2016/11/01/beware-phantom-swings-why-dramatic-swings-in-the-p/
Beware the phantom swings: why dramatic bounces in the polls aren't always what they seem

Although we didn’t find much vote switching, we did notice a different type of change: the willingness of Clinton and Trump supporters to participate in our polls varied by a significant amount depending upon what was happening at the time of the poll: when things are going badly for a candidate, their supporters tend to stop participating in polls. For example, after the release of the Access Hollywood video, Trump supporters were four percent less likely than Clinton supporters to participate in our poll. The same phenomenon occurred this weekend for Clinton supporters after the announcement of the FBI investigation: Clinton supporters responded at a three percent lower rate than Trump supporters (who could finally take a survey about a subject they liked).

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Motheroffourdragons · 06/11/2016 22:24

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This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

TheNorthRemembers · 06/11/2016 22:38

lala Just caught the end of that documentary on Weiner. I can only sigh like Joe Biden. The humiliation Ms Abedin went through.... Why did she let them film it all?
OTOH the little lad was hilarious at the end. He was calling his Mom on his phone to say Anthony Weiner is standing right opposite their school. He thought it was very cool and told Weiner that he would look Weiner's Wikipedia page up. Weiner: "I'd strongly encourage you not to do that."

Mistigri and Red That is very interesting. I'll have to look up the polls you suggested. Instead of reading the news perhaps.

mathanxiety · 07/11/2016 01:11

www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37882082
'Some MPs have also attacked the judges, including UKIP MP Douglas Carswell who called them "politicians without accountability" .'

This is rich.

mathanxiety · 07/11/2016 04:39

I suspect many voters will emerge from the woodwork and vote for Trump. Sad to say. I really hope I am wrong.

(Hillary doesn't exactly inspire me, all the same. I have friends who were sort of thinking they might write in Bernie Sanders.)

Mistigri · 07/11/2016 07:11

math this may be true, although there is not much evidence for it. OTOH there's reason to believe that US polling does not do well at reaching spanish speaking voters. Big hispanic turnout in early voting in some states eg Nevada suggests that Clinton will do better than her polls.

What's more of a concern than hidden Trump supporters is black vote suppression esp in north carolina. Lots of evidence for this.

Will be interesting to see how brexity types react to a large Trump defeat.

Bananagio · 07/11/2016 07:33

lala yes de laurenzo. I lived in Italy on and off from the mani pulite era onwards before moving here permanently 10 years ago and the faces have (sometimes) changed but otherwise the scandals and political crisis remain the same it seems- the recent Mafia Capitale dramas as an example.
That's interesting what you say regarding your Italian friends being disappointed in Britain. My Italian dp is exactly the same. Since living in the U.K. he has held up Britain in his mind as an example of calm common sense and stability and now feels we are "out-italying Italy". I think if Trump "out-berluska's Berlusconi" tomorrow he will truly feel he has fallen down the rabbit hole!

Bananagio · 07/11/2016 07:49

de Lorenzo not laurenzo - random iPhone autocorrect

RiceCrispieTreats · 07/11/2016 08:25

I know we've moved on to Italy and the US, but morningrunner had a question on page 1 that I wanted to address:

^"It could be asked if art 50 is revokable though- I know the chap who drafted it thought it could, but that won't count for much

Digging brain as for who could ask it to adudicate on that but I think it would just be a MS or the commission"^

It is very often national courts who ask the ECJ to clarify points of EU law, when they have a case in their own court that touches on EU law.

So, during the appeal of the Article 50 ruling, for example, the UK judges could well ask the ECJ to clarify whether Article 50 is or is not revocable.

The day this happens, it will of course be painted by angry populists as the EU institutions running roughshod over the will of the people.

The thing that scares me the most about populism, is how it seeks to take down the democratic system of checks and balances, along with the "greedy elites" it is primarily targeting.

We can do with politicians being knocked off their perch. But our constitutions??! Lord help us.

InformalRoman · 07/11/2016 08:52

Motheroffourdragons we were living in the US for the 2000 elections, that was like watching a car crash too.

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