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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

OP posts:
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TheElementsSong · 06/11/2016 18:36

is a lot of people trying to pin the blame on people who aren't responsible

That's been the case since June 24 - metropolitan liberal elite Remoaner traitors talking Britain down and all that. But unfortunately it has been very deliberately stoked to greater heights by our very own PM and gleefully seized upon by the media and hungrily swallowed by the population in search of a new scapegoat in addition to/to replace the EU. Things are only going to get worse for anybody who could even remotely be classified as a "citizen of the world" type no matter what happens with Brexit.

Peregrina · 06/11/2016 18:36

Haven't been in the pub thread. Do I gather that they have drunk themselves silly and are now throwing the chairs about?

TheNorthRemembers · 06/11/2016 18:43

Peregrina I did not dare to spend too much time on the pub thread, but the chairs were squarely aimed at remainers when I was there.

Mistigri · 06/11/2016 18:44

Admittedly, airline went bust when the EU ruled state aid rules were broken and the airline had to pay every penny of support back to the state.

So why do we believe Renault-Nissan would put themselves in this position?

I totally understand the point made about May's disrespect for the law (deporting students illegally etc) but surely you don't take that risk when negotiating with powerful States. It's not like dealing with a bunch of students.

And why would Nissan go along with it? This is why I think that whatever was offered cannot have been too obviously illegal and it is more credible that some firm assurances were given about the type of brexit that the government is aiming for.

vulpeculaveritas · 06/11/2016 18:51

I think its probably more credible that the firm were given assurances too, but they and the govt may have missed some legal technicalities.

But to repeat my self if Nissan know what assurances they were offered then the French do too. So why can't we debate what position we are going to take in parliament?

Bananagio · 06/11/2016 18:53

lala another one in Italy here - agree re Renzi having made a cock up re staking his future however also think he is teflon and this is Italy so even if he does resign I don't this as being the end of him and am sure he will be back in the spirit of pretty much all pm's here in the last 50 years. I also don't think the shock waves from him losing the referendum will be anything like as dramatic or as potentially dangerous as what is happening in the U.K. at the moment. Italy is used to governments crashing and living from one political or financial crisis to another. Plus as much as I am no fan of Grillo and his 5star party I do think that he is serving a purpose albeit inadvertently keeping the populist and protest votes out of the hands of the seriously scary Salvini. I don't mean this to sound flippant regarding the very real issues Italy is facing and I am concerned by them but not nearly as much as I am concerned by Brexit and what I am seeing happening back in the U.K. If Selvini looks like becoming a serious contender in the future however then I will seriously look into utilising my newly regained (hopefully) eu citizenship after getting dual citizenship and taking refuge in another corner of Europe!

Bananagio · 06/11/2016 18:55

And just Shock at the pub thread! Either some people are drinking alongside their virtual world in RL or there are some somewhat unhinged posters on the loose!

Peregrina · 06/11/2016 18:56

it is more credible that some firm assurances were given about the type of brexit that the government is aiming for.

So she is not telling us because she is 'frit' (in Mrs Thatcher's words) of upsetting her UKIP tendency? I am not sure that I agree.

I increasingly think that she is totally unsuitable for the job - we are now in desperate need of a reconciler, but one with some vision. (I think I have already said that somewhere). That is not May - she is just too inflexible and narrow.

lalalonglegs · 06/11/2016 19:11

Bananagio - there's no doubt that Renzi is a total operator and, although I profoundly disagree with the way that he was elevated to PM (I think reincarnations of the Dalai Lama are chosen with less mystery), he has been pragmatic and a stablising influence, he's a moderniser and he's outward-looking. And, having almost no political past meant that he is pretty much a clean sheet.

But it was real hubris to align himself so personally with the referendum result and it leaves it wide open to anyone who feels disaffected with him - or the political situation of the past few decades. My family are from a real Lega Nord area and it was deeply depressing hearing the same sort of arguments that were made for Brexit made for a "stronger Italy" while I was there this summer. If LN and 5* make gains in a subsequent general election then I don't think Italy is a place that I'd particularly want to find sanctuary in.

Brexit is a more pressing concern though Smile.

Mistigri · 06/11/2016 19:19

I think its probably more credible that the firm were given assurances too, but they and the govt may have missed some legal technicalities.

I have had regular dealings with Japanese car companies in my work over the years. These are not fly by night companies. They are both careful and risk averse. Indeed they often put risk ahead of money when making decisions.

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2016 19:26

andrew murrison ‏@murrisonMP
If Judges can frustrate a referendum outcome, why not the result of a general election that isn't to their liking?

Andrew Murrison – Conservative MP for South West Wiltshire

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
If MPs can make a referendum legally binding then they should have done so, and not blame the judges when they didn't.

A simple clause from @murrisonMP or other MP would have made referendum legally binding.

But they didn't bother, and now blame judges.

Brexiteer MPs had it within their power to make the referendum legally binding, but they couldn't be bothered.

And now, judges are blamed.

Tabloid attacks are one thing; but for Brexiteer MPs to attack judges when it was their own failure to make referendum binding is another.

Nigel Draper @nigeldraper
@Lawandpolicy @murrisonMP Simple clause something like "HMG to trigger A50 within x months of referendum"?

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
It would have been that easy, more-or-less.

Charles Tannock @CharlesTannock
@Lawandpolicy @RTaylor_LibDem @murrisonMP judges can frustrate the result of a parliamentary election if electoral law has been violated

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Rule of law. Pesky thing.

Johnny Mercer MP ‏@JohnnyMercerMP
I spent half my life in countries where the judiciary do what politicians tell them to. You wouldn't want to live there. Grow up.

BTW #BREXIT 'fury' at judges unacceptable and ridiculous. No-ones holding anything up. We are leaving the EU, whilst following due process.

Johnny Mercer – Conservative MP for Plymouth Moor South

OP posts:
vulpeculaveritas · 06/11/2016 19:30

I know Misti so I'm inquisitive to know what they have been told.

Robert Peston wrote a great thing about the fact that if we aren't coming out of the customs union, then Fox's job is pointless.

Peregrina · 06/11/2016 19:32

Glad to see that some MPs are beginning to speak out. Let's hope it's not too little, too late.

vulpeculaveritas · 06/11/2016 19:46

Its a bit addictive being on that thread, but a bit of a batter to the senses too.

InformalRoman · 06/11/2016 19:55

vulpeculaveritas just wait, WW will be back to batter you with more circular non-arguments again in a minute - suspect there is a slight hiatus as the tantalus is being raided.

whatwouldrondo · 06/11/2016 20:02

vulpa Don't worry, too much complexity which they can't respond to with "power to the people, down with the elites" or similar they flounce off to go to the supermarket, cook the dinner, answer the door (all actual excuses) or whatever and then retreat to the simplicity of a Trump thread until the early hours of the morning.

jaws5 · 06/11/2016 20:10

WW will be back to batter you with more circular non-arguments again in a minute - suspect there is a slight hiatus as the tantalus is being raidedGrin
Someone was calling out for Nigel to save the country I think they fancy him

jaws5 · 06/11/2016 20:11

Re: Brexit pub, I find myself lurking there and then succumbing, irresistible but I need to stop.

InformalRoman · 06/11/2016 20:15

Yeah, you know you shouldn't but you just can't help yourself.

Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?
vulpeculaveritas · 06/11/2016 20:18

Its addictive.

Bananagio · 06/11/2016 20:33

I agree lala re Renzi - think that was biggest mistake he has made so far and think it is going to haunt him. The LN scare me as much as Grillo irritates me and I can only hope that outside their heartlands the Lega won't make significant progress in a GE. Raggi is not exactly making a great impression where I am in Rome for 5* so they aren't making a notable impression at this attempt at governing. I think having followed Italian politics through mani puliti, through Berlusconi on numerous occasions, the technocrats, the spread crisis etc and all the numerous other crisis in between I somehow have more hope in the Italians ability to carry on regardless. Whereas I feel like in the U.K. something seems to have fundamentally broken. Berlusconi banged on for years about the communist judges being out to get him but somehow that never seemed as chilling as the Dailly Mail and the enemy of the people story the other day.

TheNorthRemembers · 06/11/2016 20:50

InformalRoman Grin

Mistigri Either Nissan or May has miscalculated whatever is in that comfort letter. Somehow I do not think it would be Nissan.

vulpeculaveritas It is definitely a good shout that the French know what is going on via the Nissan-Renault alliance. They are just being polite for now.

I think reincarnations of the Dalai Lama are chosen with less mystery must be the quote of the day, lalalonglegs. I am fascinated by Italian politics, so it is very interesting to read your and bananagio's insights.

Red It has got to the stage where I like more Tory MPs than Labour.

I will probably spend next week in incommunicado. I just cannot face another Brexit week with the US election. Sadly BBC news is always on in the office right next to my desk.

Mistigri · 06/11/2016 20:54

I was very worried about brexit (when all my colleagues thought it couldn't happen) but I am quite relaxed about the American election. I don't even think it will be close.

TheNorthRemembers · 06/11/2016 21:09

Mistigri Thank you for saying this. As a sign of my gratitude, here is my favourite recent clip from CNN - Joe Biden finds out the source of the new emails (Anthony Wiener) live on television. It is priceless. His face says it all.

GloriaGaynor · 06/11/2016 21:15

I think the way to deal with US election week is just assume Trump's in and we're all fucked.

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