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Brexit

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Westministenders. Boris needs to learn from Yoda. Brexit Episode IV: A New Hope?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 18:05

"It is a period of civil unharmony. Rebels, striking from the High Court, have won their first victory against the evil Wannabe Empire. During the battle, rebel civilians managed to foil plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the Royal Prerogative; a tool of the executive with enough power to destroy an entire country.

Pursued by the Wannbe Empire’s sinister agents, Keir Starmer, Mark Carney and Phillip Hammond race back to the office after the a50 judgement, custodians of the questions and authority that can save the people from economic disaster and restore sovereignty to the UK parliament…."

The start of this thread is deliberate to play up to the Remain v Leave thing but also to point out just how crackers it all is really and is increasingly being made out

Yoda once said: “Control. Control. You must learn control”. This is kind of important to the concept of taking it back. It seems the government might just be learning that ‘Taking Back Control’ means parliament and the courts get that control under the rules and law of the land rather than the executive being free to run away and go crazy about what it can – and can not - control.

Lets not get carried away by the ruling though. It does not stop Brexit. Nor does it save us from disaster. And the question of whether it really does give us a New Hope is still an open one.

That its worth remembering that Star Wars was still about a war and fight for freedom and Brexit is stacking up this way. And that the whole good versus bad thing is part of the problem.

In some ways its easier make it out as black and white and say Remain this and Leave that. Its wrong. Its not a fucking fairy tale. Its real life where things are much less black and white.

The ruling has provoked outrage from the right wing press. We are all very aware of this. And yet there are also key voices from Leave who regard it as nothing more than a tactical setback and see it as a positive thing for democracy and sovereignty. Voices not mentioned by the people plastering photos of judges over their covers. Today there has been the resignation of a Tory MP who voted leave who could no longer support the government and the way they were handling Brexit. He has been wrongly labelled by more than a few angry Leavers as being a Remain supporter.

We must not lose sight of this.

What the ruling does, if it stands, is change how Brexit will play out, not stop it play out. It does not remove the biggest barriers to Brexit. It merely forces those who have been trying to avoid many of these barriers and refuse to acknowledge them to tackle them head on. It limits the worst excesses of the right wing agenda by simply stopping abuses of power, not removing their power.

In essence it has forced the Brexit debate has been forced to shuffle a little towards the centre ground which is what May should have done from the off in order to build a consensus and win over support from BOTH Remain and Leave campaign.

So what has changed exactly?

Firstly, and crucially the ruling is pretty comprehensive and seems strong against appeal. That’s not to say that the government can’t win on appeal. It is just that they would need something pretty big to change it.
There is a strong argument to be made about why they are even thinking of appealing. Pressure has already mounted about the need for parliamentary scrutiny. If the government were true to their word then they don’t need the royal prerogative to invoke a50 for this reason.

It begs the question loudly about whether the use of the prerogative is primarily a political decision to benefit the Conservatives rather than in the best interests of the country. Using the prerogative is a shield and prevents people from seeing what is going on. The government claim it’s the EU they are trying to stop from seeing what is going on. Its not. The room the government has to negotiate and the cards they hold is so narrow and so few that the EU know every move the government can possibly make and can plan and act accordingly.

The stark truth is the cloak is to prevent the eyes of the UK from seeing what is planned and asking questions of it. The government are aware that they can not deliver on several of their problems. They are trying to spin it, exploit and manipulate the situation for their own political ambitions rather in good faith and in respect of the EU referendum decision. Which is quite incredible given the accusations levelled at those who voted Remain.

The principle of restoring the sovereignty of the country to parliament and British courts has been shown up as fallacy No1 and a shame.
So, can they reverse the decision of the court. Perhaps. Several constitutional lawyers say the government argued very poorly first time round. But it will now take something even more convincing to persuade the Supreme court that the High Court decision was flawed. May seems confident of a victory in the Supreme Court and has told Juncker in a phone call that’s what she thinks.

The big rabbit they do have, is to request a referral to the European Court of Justice to establish that a50 is reversible. Of course doing this seems unfeasible for a number of reasons – not least because of the irony of having to go to the EU because the UK courts didn’t come up with the ruling they wanted. But more because it changes the political dynamic of the next GE and sets it up to be about Europe alone and because it changes diplomacy with the EU. It also ramps up the stakes in terms of the threat of rebellions and no confidence votes being more likely. Nothing is beyond the rules of Brexit Farce and Hypocrisy though.

Secondly May’s personal authority, in particular, has taken a huge knock. She said that Article 50 would be triggered by the end of March. This is improbable now, especially if the judgment stands. The decision to even think about using the Royal Prerogative over Parliament raises questions about her judgement. And it is raised again by the decision to appeal as this may loose her even more time.

Not to mention its rather embarrassing to have to admit this to the EU. May has already phoned Juncker to say the UK is still on track for article 50 to be triggered in March which is a bold move. It could mean she has an even bigger climb down to make if the judgement does stand.

Her reaction to the ruling seems almost as if its personal and no10 has apparently come down hard on the attorney general for 'cocking it up'.

Thirdly if a50 does have to go through the Commons and Lords, it is unlikely to be invoked before late 2017 at the very earliest. It is far more likely to be in early 2018.

This also shifts the earliest date we will leave the EU until after the next round of EU elections in June 2019 and within months of the next planned GE in 2020. It also means the window in which May might be able to have an early GE (if she can get round the Fixed Term Act) is smaller and shifts to early 2018. Alternatively a forced early GE, as the result of a vote of no confidence, could lead to a proxy EU referendum 2 situation. Which is frankly, a bit of a mess and a headache for the Tories now.

It also means Heathrow is screwed as its going to clash with the a50 bill and potentially is going to face more legal problems as the most likely way to oppose it is likely to be through the courts using EU law on environmental issues, that ideally perhaps Heathrow advocates would like to repeal post Brexit to ensure it goes ahead. Especially since the government appears to ignored a report which says Gatwick was better for other reasons, and only a 1% increase in costs would wipe out the economic case for Heathrow.

Basically it would just mucks up May’s entire timetable.

Four, the ruling could well have implications for the ‘Great’ Repeal Bill. It could make it even more difficult to pass because of the constitutional implications with regard to the power of the executive and those pesky Henry VIII clauses. The a50 ruling is about the Royal Prerogative which is a separate instrument but some of the same principles about the role of parliament still stand.

Five, the ruling did not address the constitutional issues with Scotland. This is still a hurdle the government are likely to have to get over. The Scottish Government are now exploring this and whether to enter their own legal case.

Six, the ruling stated that the NI a50 case was ‘too broad’. This is fair comment. Their ruling also potentially gives strength to the arguments re: The Good Friday agreement with the difference between the power of the Crown with regard to international treaties but having no power over them in domestic law and the need for ratification via parliament. (And vice versa with their removal).

Seven, Mark Carney is going in Mid 2019. Which is now, very potentially, BEFORE Brexit. This is potentially a Very Bad Thing.

Eight, the right wing press reaction once again like May, questions the rule of law. This is concerning. And this position is being supported by the governments refusal to condemn it or acknowledge properly that they are appealing not because they believe the judges are biased but because they don’t think their case was presented well enough.

Nine, watch the NHS and how its handled. Two select committee chairs have now written to May on her not being honest about finances. The fate of the NHS is ultimately what public opinion will turn on. Don’t be surprised by a sudden bag on cash being handed out of nowhere.

And finally and once again in the words of the great Yoda.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”.

I wish Yoda were real. Somehow I think life would feel much simpler.

(The Supreme Court will hear the government’s article 50 appeal in early December (I believe the 7th has been mentioned). In an unprecedented move, it is believed all 11 Supreme Court judges will sit, reflecting the importance of the case. Judgment may not be handed down until the new year.)

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Peregrina · 06/11/2016 16:39

I muse in passing, what sort of margin would have been necessary for the vote to be declared a dead heat. Or would one vote in favour of Leave swung it?

tiggytape - it looks to me, from what you say above, that we are not all that good at drafting Referendum legislation. With the Welsh vote you do have to wonder what sort of mandate was given by 65% of 35% i.e. 23% of the electorate.

InformalRoman · 06/11/2016 16:40

tiggytape That's true, but the AV referendum bill (a) set out the AV system provisions and (b) stated that the Minister must make an order bringing those provisions into force if the result of the referendum was to implement AV.

As the UK voted against AV, there had to be an order to repeal those AV provisions.

tiggytape · 06/11/2016 16:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

InformalRoman · 06/11/2016 16:47

Peregrina there were all sorts of amendments suggested that didn't make it through to the final bill, including that for a vote to leave the EU to be declared there had to be a majority vote to leave across the UK as a whole and a majority vote to leave in each of the 4 constituent countries.

With hindsight, that would have been eminently sensible to avoid the position that Scotland and N Ireland now find themselves in.

vulpeculaveritas · 06/11/2016 16:49

"MPs agreed to enact whatever was decided and abide by the result."

No they didn't Cameron did, and look what happened to that, the MPs voted for an advisory referendum which was the only thing they are held by, the thing they voted for. Sorry there is nothing else to say on that.

It has to be scrutinised by parliament, as the legal ruling states, the law nothing else is binding.

Further, such a small majority needs to be taken into consideration too, even Daniel Hannan admitted there wasn't a mandate for hard brexit because of it.

So, we may have to have brexit if politicians decide that its politically binding, but legally we don't have to have any.

Its part of the checks and balances of living in a representative democracy.

tiggytape · 06/11/2016 16:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Peregrina · 06/11/2016 16:52

I would assume that the Tory party took Cameron's word as being binding upon them? However, he also said he would trigger Art. 50 immediately, and that hasn't happened yet, and he's now gone completely from the political stage.

flippinada · 06/11/2016 16:58

I remember these threads kept me sane in the aftermath of the EU Referendum. So glad they're still going. Thanks Red.

vulpeculaveritas · 06/11/2016 17:07

The pub thread seems to have gone bonkers.

TheElementsSong · 06/11/2016 17:07

The pub thread was always bonkers.

hotmail124 · 06/11/2016 17:09

I agree Vulpe even the 51.9% leave result compared to the 48.1% remain has no legal or political status. Referenda results are advisory in this country.

If you were to compare it to a family, a fair and equitable family, the way decisions are made are not on the whim of those with the power, but in discussion with other family members and bearing in mind what and how things have been decided before.

In constitutional law it's called separation of powers. The executive (government) and legislature ( parliament) and judiciary have to work together and if they don't 'that way madness and fascism lie( look at Turkey's coup in which many of the judiciary have been disappeared) . It's not perfect but it's the least imperfect system we've got, to misquote Churchill.

Some how, by ignoring, blocking whatever the lords' amendment to the referendum bill was, this separation of powers was not embedded in the referendum bill.

Leaving this terrifying legal loop hole has led to the current constitutional political and economic crisis and people not understanding the role of the judiciary and the subsequent attacks on them in some of the press. Was this really just a mistake?

To return to my family metaphor; you don't normally ask a family to decide on something unless you know you can cope with the decision. Who doesn't leave 'get outs' and options round family decisions?

I'm not a lawyer, so excuse me if I've got this wrong, lawyers!.

InformalRoman · 06/11/2016 17:09

vulpeculaveritas that's because some posters think if you keep saying the same thing over and over again it becomes true. I do wonder if more than just virtual alcohol is involved.

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2016 17:19

Adam Wagner ‏@AdamWagner1
Liz Truss's statement on Brexit judgment so anodyne I wonder if govt keeping powder dry for apparent bias submission. Just a thought

I hope to god this is not on the cards.

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ClashCityRocker · 06/11/2016 17:23

The pub thread makes depressing reading.

They don't want to debate, just yell 'the people have spoken!' ad nauseum.

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2016 17:25

BTW things are currently about as bad as I thought they might get at this stage, and I think we yet to hit peak Brexit insanity. Things are only just starting to heat up.

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lalalonglegs · 06/11/2016 17:42

Theresa May has spoken about the "Enemies of the People" newspaper coverage and it isn't good:

“I believe in and value the independence of our judiciary. I also value the freedom of our press,” she told reporters. “These both underpin our democracy.”

Oh dear - things are only going to get worse, you say? It's good I can find the 900 euros to register my children as Italian citizens and we can escape this madness. I'll miss the England I knew c. 2015 though Sad.

vulpeculaveritas · 06/11/2016 17:43

I fear red that this is just the phony war stage.

Once article 50 is declared and the economic impacts become more apparent then I fear things will get far worse.

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2016 17:46

lalalonglegs, doesn't Italy have a referendum coming up?
Have you seen the opinion polls on it....

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TheNorthRemembers · 06/11/2016 17:49

Wow! Just had a peek at the pub thread. Never again Shock

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2016 17:50

that's just it isn't vulpeculaveritas.

Its a loose - loose situation.

No a50 trigger or big block, hell breaks loose from people who think they have been betrayed
a50 triggered, hell breaks loose when the reality of the situation becomes clear.

All that's happening now, is a lot of people trying to pin the blame on people who aren't responsible to save their own necks and keep their power in the long run.

I'm starting to feel the fear again.

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lalalonglegs · 06/11/2016 17:52

Yes, it does and Renzi is seen to have played a very poor hand having staked his political future on its outcome (weirdly, he did this after he saw the EU referendum turning into a disaster for David Cameron and knowing full well that Italians hold their politicians in even lower regard than the British do). I don't know what he was playing at but... Italian citizenship does give me 26 other countries to choose from - at least, for the time being.

vulpeculaveritas · 06/11/2016 18:05

Right I can't argue with this majority vote stuff any longer, its daft.

tiggytape · 06/11/2016 18:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheNorthRemembers · 06/11/2016 18:17

In my younger days I used to work in corporate finance. One of our clients was a (now defunct) state-owned airline. We (the bank) have spent absolutely ages forcing the state to give us the perfect legally enforceable comfort letter. Noone in the bank or airline cared / worried about state aid. Admittedly, airline went bust when the EU ruled state aid rules were broken and the airline had to pay every penny of support back to the state.

HesterThrale · 06/11/2016 18:33

Thanks Red, and everyone, for continuing to post sane and intelligent stuff. (Just popped into the pub thread. Think I'll stick with this one.)

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