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Brexit

This is potentially a game-changer!

554 replies

pensivepolly · 03/11/2016 10:13

Breaking news from the High Court on Article 50: www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/03/parliament-must-trigger-brexit-high-court-rules

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HyacinthFuckit · 03/11/2016 21:39

And as for you Chris, that was an even bigger bag of shit than your previous posts on the issue, which is no mean feat. I would just laugh, and observe that if you don't want to be patronised you have the option of not making your ignorance so obvious, except for the fact that you think you have the right to co-opt the deaths of millions of people into your pathetic little rant.

And that's where, I'm afraid, you cross the decency line as well as the sanity one. You see, my grandad fought in WW2, my great grandads in WW1, and they certainly didn't do it so the likes of you could promote executive tyranny over parliamentary democracy from the safety of your laptop. You don't get to use their sacrifice or their memories for your own ends. You don't speak for them. Now you really should be ashamed of yourself.

Antifrank · 03/11/2016 21:39

Chris1234567890, you write that many men died in two world wars to protect the right to referendums. Frankly, that is total horse shit. We live in a representative democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Todays ruling has upheld that. That is what many men died for, to use your over emotive language

mellongoose · 03/11/2016 21:42

I would like to see MPs vote in line with their constituents, therefore showing they listen and fully represent those who elected them in 2015.

Brexit will happen. I do not believe our negotiators should be expected to show their hand purely because people the media demand it. Please let them get on with their job.

HyacinthFuckit · 03/11/2016 21:43

In November of all months, throwing the memory of millions of war dead out of your pram along with all your toys is beyond the pale.

pensivepolly · 03/11/2016 21:44

Chris - after all this, you aren't still clear about the parameters of a referendum??? It is ADVISORY. I'm sure MPs (now that they are permitted their sovereign right to vote) will take the referendum result under advisement. I am as sure as I can be that we will leave the EU. You are right about that. That is not the point! The point is that the Government will no longer be permitted to do an end run around Parliament. Negotiations will, I hope, be more transparent and give a fair hearing to all sides on the issues involved in leaving the EU.
Nothing has changed regarding your "right to referenda". (And I think the two world wars were about a great deal more than the right to hold a referendum....)
All of this has been explained numerous times on this thread and elsewhere.

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morningrunner · 03/11/2016 21:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DieSchottin93 · 03/11/2016 21:57

What was the point in having the referendum then? Hmm

Antifrank · 03/11/2016 22:00

DieSchottin93 - what do you mean by that comment? This ruling doesn't mean that we won;t leave the EU. What is does mean is that parliament will scrutinise and vote on the terms - which is what parliamentary democracy is al about

Fleurdelise · 03/11/2016 22:01

To ask the public's opinion and then get the parliament to act on it according to their expertise. Nobody said brexit will not happen, just that it will happen democratically and the MPs that we all voted for will be involved in the process. Surely that is was sovereignty means? Hmm

no point to have a referendum on such an important matter though, on such matters the MPs should make decisions as this is why we vote for them, to represent us

HyacinthFuckit · 03/11/2016 22:01

Are you trying to suggest the referendum has become pointless, because an unelected PM with a majority of 12 isn't allowed to pursue a Brexit without a parliamentary vote that literally nobody voted for?

Antifrank · 03/11/2016 22:15

What is interesting is that historically the 3 pillars of UK power - the executive, the legislative and the judiciary - have all been equal and have helped to keep power balanced. Since the Blair government, the executive has tried to squash the power of the legislative, and this has become worse with the coalition and Tory government. This hopefully signals a titling back of those powers to more equitable distribution

TheWoodlander · 03/11/2016 22:41

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this - and I'm not kidding - one of our MP's tweeted: Unelected judges calling the shots. This is precisely why we voted out. Power to the people!

Yes, that's an MP.

I didn't realise we voted to lose our independent judiciary too Shock

The hundreds of replies set him straight. But I'm in shock that an MP can write such utter shite.

Peregrina · 03/11/2016 23:31

Chris1234567890, you write that many men died in two world wars to protect the right to referendums.

Chris1234567890 If you read some history, I think you will find that many died in at least one of the World Wars to overthrow Dictators who used referendums for their own ends. I do trust you have heard of the names of Hitler and Mussolini? There is a very good reason why Germany has banned them entirely now, and Italy has limited their use, and would not have allowed ours to happen.

Peregrina · 03/11/2016 23:36

I have been catching up after being out most of the day, so I may have missed something. Hasn't Theresa May said that she still plans to stick to her original deadline of end of March for invoking Art 50? Is that no longer within her power - it will be when Parliament decides the time is right? Which could be sooner, if they thought that was the correct option.

Why are the majority of Brexiteers getting so annoyed about Parliamentary democracy? Just imagine if by some fluke, Corbyn became PM and started ruling by Royal Perogative. Would any Brexiteers be arguing that it was OK for him to do so? Would they F*.

Chris1234567890 · 04/11/2016 01:08

Peregrina, and theres a very good reason why we support the right to national referendum, (well we did until todays ruling which turns it into a pathetic opinion poll) but hey, lets not split hairs over military dictators that I assume you are likening Teresa May to.

It is utterly ridiculous to cheer that parliamentary democracy has been won today. Ask yourselves what you are demanding here? Remainers today persist that they are merely demanding a right to define the basis of negotiations for Brexit, utterly ignoring the fact that our negotiations are with Europe.....NOT MPs of the house of commons. Are the remain camp next going to demand the EU present their position prior to whether they now will decide if they fancy Brexit it or not? The most you will get from Europe is hot air and posturing. We know Europes claimed position.
What act of parliament would you like to see ? I assume the remains wish to demand (via todays legal success) that Brexit only happens with guaranteed access to the single market? Ask Europe, not our MPs. What do you expect our MPs to do about that? Are remainers agreeing to controls on unlimited migration? Ask Europe. What on earth do you expect our MPs to now be empowered to negotiate by todays ruling? Our MPs will not have any influence on Europes agreement, and if this mandate is turned into a mandate with conditions, then why should europe negotiate at all? No agreement means no brexit.

So lets ignore all this paliamentary democracy rubbish that the remains are hiding behind, today has been about one thing and one thing only, the first perceived step to blocking Brexit happening full stop. Why remainers have to be so slippery about this is beyond me, but hey ho, slippery self interested elite is why we voted out in the first place. Those of us who voted out, voted out at any cost. Not to be bent over a barrell and blackmailed into half hearted appeasment to ensure the bankers passport scheme ensures Mrs Miller keeps her highly lucrative annual bonus. The mandate is out. Teresa May has a mandate. If Europe refuse to negotiate access to the single market, so be it, not some pathetic "oh we'll stay in then because half our MPs will only approve the Brexit divorce if they get to keep the house". Get real. Todays ruling has simply been to undermine the mandate and will of the people. Trying to dress it up as anything else is ridiculous when you shift the argument to terms of negotiation.

If your argument is simply we were just too stupid to be given this responsibility, well I best just get my knickers back on and get back in the kitchen where I belong. Never mind demanding IQ tests for voters, you best take the vote off women too, or should I say, just off the women who dont get annual bonuses from their husbands?

NotYoda · 04/11/2016 06:26

Hyacinth

Completely agree

I hate Cameron more than ever today. What a mess.

Mistigri · 04/11/2016 06:28

It's not fundamentally unreasonable to ask the people whether they would prefer to be inside the EU or out (although IMO it would have been better to make this a manifesto promise and fight an election on it).

It's very unreasonable to believe that the terms of brexit should not be subject to parliamentary and judiciary scrutiny.

Have a look at what's happening in Turkey right now (judges and lawmakers being arrested for opposing government) and tell me that's what you want ...

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 04/11/2016 06:43

Would any Brexiteers be arguing that it was OK for him to do so? Would they F

You are assuming all leavers are of the right. They weren't. Many Corbyn supporters were actually for Brexit. Also many leave areas were Labour heartlands.

Mistigri · 04/11/2016 06:45

Presumably Labour leavers would actively prefer the terms of brexit to be scrutinised by their MPs, rather than being decided by a small group of mostly hard-right Tories?

morningrunner · 04/11/2016 07:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 04/11/2016 07:25

It would have been very easy for the govt to insert a clause in the referendum act making the result legally binding . They didn't , they made it advisory only. Anyone who knows anything about the basics of constitutional law is not surprised by this result

I agree.

I also don't think it will change anything and we will still leave. There have been high profile remain mps who have said they stand by the result, so those thinking it will change the result may very well disappointed.

BecauseIamaBear · 04/11/2016 07:32

I am in two minds.

I agree that Parliament should debate and have the final say.

But I am concerned this is a stalking horse for the remoan campaign and will be used to thwart the results of the referendum. Certainly there are many here who want to ignore the referendum and who seem very happy about this.

Me2017 · 04/11/2016 07:33

I agree with Antif. We are lucky to have Parliament, Government and the judges. When instead you move to one of those only or one man / woman rule life is dangerous. We need checks and balances whch having independent courts (rather than say judges picked by the Government) to keep our democracy working.

However I don't think this is the end of it. the Supreme Court may not agree later this year and in any event Parliament might approve Brexit given the fact the referendum was won fair and square (and I write that as a Remainer).

Bearbehind · 04/11/2016 07:34

Hasn't Theresa May said that she still plans to stick to her original deadline of end of March for invoking Art 50

I assume that's based on her assuming they'll win the appeal next month which isn't going to happen.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 04/11/2016 07:37

I assume that's based on her assuming they'll win the appeal next month which isn't going to happen.

No one knows if they will.

They don't l ways agree.