This is potentially a game-changer!

[pensivepolly]

Breaking news from the High Court on Article 50: www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/03/parliament-must-trigger-brexit-high-court-rules

"Bloody Cameron, Farage and Johnson should all be shot for treason in my book, for pursuing petty party political issues at the huge expense of the British nation and people, for all the lies and ongoing ignored domestic issues that brought us to this place."

Too bloody right, BungoWomble. Unfortunately.

snape83 people vote for their parliamentary representatives not, or not directly, for policies. The point of a parliamentary democracy is that complex decisions are delegated to our representatives (and in some cases, they are further delegated either to government or to civil servants: you don't get to vote on which way interest rates move, for example).

Well, nobody ever went broke overestimating the intelligence of the general public. I forget who said that, but they were right.

However, the very nature of the referendum sort of forced stupidity on us, didn't it? Because of the choice to make something not remotely binary a binary choice, and the piss poor standard of campaigns (for which Remain aren't without fault either) for many of us our hands were forced. I myself didn't feel I had any real option to consider voting Leave because of the lack of information, which felt undemocratic. There was no mechanism to say I want to leave, but only if we can stay in the EEA or if we have a plan beforehand or if Parliament can vote on it or if it happens by next August. Nor any option to say I want to remain, but I'm really worried about democratic accountability within the EU or I don't like the EU much but I'm willing to give it ten more years. I appreciate that it wasn't possible to have a buffet menu of options on the ballot, but these are things that could have been tackled within our political culture, and weren't.

Now I'm not one to absolve Leave voters from the responsibility of their choices, today of all days. If you chose to vote Leave despite it being clear there was no plan nor proper mechanism in place, you own the consequences of that decision, and you don't get to whinge about it when your preferred way of Leaving doesn't happen. I'm also not inclined to blame the political class entirely: it's true that we wouldn't be in this mess if Cameron weren't a fuckwit, but people weren't forced to vote as they did. But I maintain that by the time the referendum happened, we were faced with two not necessarily accurate or palatable choices and had experienced a campaign that didn't have to be anything like as inaccurate or poor quality as it was.

And thank you for the kind words OP.

From Jo Maughum writing in the FT:

"The government will have to draft a Bill and place it before parliament....
There would in the Commons be – and I think, rightly – little or no enthusiasm for rejecting it. More likely is that MPs would impose conditions on the triggering of Article 50. And they would be right to do so as it cannot sensibly be argued that the referendum answered the fundamental question of what Brexit means

For some Leavers it is about immigration. For others it is Taking Back Control. Many say it is about the £350m. Who is to pick between these sometimes competing objectives? MPs may, unsurprisingly, take the view that that is a matter for them – and not for someone who, at least in her capacity as Prime Minister, has a rather weak democratic mandate.

And, of course, many MPs will also feel that in shaping the terms of Brexit they should have regard to the wishes of those who voted to Remain. The Referendum asked whether we should leave the EU. It did not ask whether the 48 per cent should lose the opportunity to help shape a country that belongs to them too."

Brilliant words from Jo Maugham. I still believe that we will ultimately leave the EU, which isn't what I wanted, but today's ruling has at least restored my faith in democracy and the political process, as it says in no uncertain terms that TM should not be permitted to negotiate the process of Brexit in a completely opaque and dictatorial way. The checks and balances might still work as they were meant to.

Hyacinth : It was H.L. Mencken - "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people." I think it's ok to generalise though. He also said "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." !!!

Pensive - TM won't be dictating the Brexit deal that will be done by the EU.

Today, for the first time since 24 June, I felt some happiness. Yes, really, it's affected me that much (but I am a UK resident from an EU country). Other than that, I'll just go with what pensivepolly said in her post at 19:46. Brings it down to the point, really.

I realise that. She said that she intended to keep the negotiating process a secret from Parliament. Now that can't happen, I would think.

(previous post directed to time4chocolate - sorry bestcat!!)

Please can we put intelligence tests on future elections and referendums? A certain level of understanding needed before you vote.

I know this is inflammatory but I can't say it elsewhere and today has reminded me how furious I am about some, not all, Brexiteers who had no idea what they were voting for

I think the odds of PM May calling a snap election have just risen immensely and the election will essentially end up being a redo of the referendum. It will be interesting to see how that goes, given that 70% of Labour supporters voted to leave whilst their MPs are overwhelmingly remainders, I imagine there will be some big changes in parliament...

A fundamentally flawed judgement which should, rightfully, be overturned on appeal.

However, should Parliament refuse to act on the will of the people May will undoubtedly go to the country and be returned by a landslide that will most probably herald the end of the Labour Party as we know it.

He who laughs last laughs longest and I see no reason to be cheerful or for Remainers to be optimistic.

I can't understand why people are upset about this ruling. Brexiters wanted more sovereignty. And that is exactly what we have got

Gosh, the level of ignorance and lack of understanding of how democracy works (or should work) is sometimes painful to read! And that only proves that what was said about a lot of brexiteers (that they have no clue what they are voting for or against) is unfortunately true!

You're worried that this is going to make ordinary people suffer because of lost jobs and a faltering housing market jack?! Oh the ironing!

And goddess, I'd be interested to hear why you think this is a fundamentally flawed judgement. The language you use makes it sound like you think it's legally problematic rather than just being something you didn't want to happen. What's your reasoning?

I'm not sure if a GE was called that May would be returned by a landslide. If anything I think this mess will finally galvanise the young into voting.

Delaying this process and getting people to cool off and discuss options can only be a good thing. Why the panic to get out so quickly and with no plan in place? Surely better for all of parliament to be accountable for the process and outcome than us being driven off the edge of a cliff with no safeguards in place. Gina Miller did a sensible thing that will hopefully preserve the economy and jobs.

3amEternal regarding a GE, who would the sensible people vote for? Labour are in disarray, LibDems are invisible and Tories have been taken over by the swivel eyed loons

And for the record jackny we've lived in uncertainty since June, the high court's decision already had a considerable impact on the financial markets with the pound raising in value.

The uncertainty it now in fact ending, we will now see the brexit deal proposal and the MPs will decide what is best for the ENTIRE country, not for approximately half (well about a third by the time you count in he people who didn't vote).

That is how democracy works, you elect MPs who know what politics is about and make decisions for you. And if you're not happy you can elect new MPs and so on.

TM has not been elected, her decision making without consulting the MPs is a form of dictatorship.

This wasn't about "one posh, rich woman's voice." She didn't write today's decision - she mounted the legal challenge. As the judges pointed out in their decision, anyone living in the UK is free to do so. Other people have recently lodged similar challenges.

If only the posh cow had listened to underprivileged, salt of the earth Brexit types like, erm, Boris.

And because I feel my blood pressure rising let me tell you how uncertainty feels: I work for a well loved British retailer, since June our cost prices are increasing by the day, we're struggling financially again after just about surviving a recession. And I am not sure we'll survive this now. Another retailer could sink just like the ones we've watched going down during recession and felt sorry for them. In the mean time while taking your country back nobody supports British businesses. Amazon/Apple/Starbucks are taking over because the British people don't actually have any British pride except when it comes to brexit.

And this isn't about me losing my job, I will find work as long as I function as a able bodied adult, this is about seeing how the uncertainty kills businesses, affects the same poor people but hey, let TM, an unelected person, to trash the country for the sake of "we won! We don't know what we won but we did and we want our prize, art 50".