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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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Thread gallery
16
prettybird · 26/10/2016 17:56

At least with Berloscuni there was a logic to his corruption actions Wink

RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 18:39

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam

important: Govt wants to run Article 50 exit talks concurrently with new UK-EU arrangement - it only requires QMV

To avoid a veto, they want talks on new UK-EU arrangement at the same time as A50 talks as it only needs a qualified majority vote.

www.politico.eu/pro/liam-fox-seeks-quick-eu-deal-to-avoid-wallonian-problem/?utm_content=buffer1ecd1&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Liam Fox seeks a quick EU deal to avoid 'Wallonian problem'

He suggested some European leaders were putting "politics ahead of prosperity" by forcing Britain to stick to the letter of EU law in a bid to hamper its ability to strike new trade deals.

Yes Liam Fox ACTUALLY said this.

He is clearly away with the fairies if he thinks we can do both at the same time! This is a disaster waiting to happen if we rush a deal.

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RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 18:47

Matthew Holehouse ‏@mattholehouse
Peter Lilley on the Brexit committee. Declaring for Brexit, he said history of Irish and Indian independence showed it would go "smoothly".

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night
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RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 19:16

The Sun and the online app crazy that everyone is into at the moment and how shit and inaccurate it is:

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Peregrina · 26/10/2016 19:21

God Almighty! Doesn't Peter Lilley know about the Civil War in Ireland?Doesn't he know of the appalling bloodbath which happened between Muslims and Hindus, when India and Pakistan became independent?Doesn't he remember the bloodshed when Bangladesh split from Pakistan, Kenya and Mau Mau - I could go on and on.

What planet does he live on?

smallfox2002 · 26/10/2016 19:24

Peter Lilley was always a dimwitted fool.

CeciledeVolanges · 26/10/2016 19:31

I'm just listening to an interview with Nick Clegg from right before the student fees vote. He is talking about the plan to reduce the deficit to zero in five years. I'd forgotten that was the promise of the coalition...

whatwouldrondo · 26/10/2016 19:49

I can't believe Peter Lilley is still around. I was involved in dealings with him when he was Margaret Thatcher's bag carrier Secretary for Trade and Industry. He had a particularly clever Sir Humphrey Permanent Secretary who would meet you for walk, he always wore a flasher's mac, to advise you on how to play your part in his strategy for bringing about the right course of action. It all went rather well and Peter Lilley was easily bought in line, and even bought himself a matching flasher's mac, until Maggie learned of it and got out her handbag.

ManonLescaut · 26/10/2016 19:51

Anyone familiar with Lilley's pastiche of the Executioner's 'little list' song from The Mikado, which he used to illustrate his plan to 'close down the something for nothing society' at a Tory party conference.

'I've got a little list / Of benefit offenders who I'll soon be rooting out / And who never would be missed / They never would be missed. / There's those who make up bogus claims / In half a dozen names / And councillors who draw the dole / To run left-wing campaigns / They never would be missed / They never would be missed. / There's young ladies who get pregnant just to jump the housing queue / And dads who won't support the kids / of ladies they have ... kissed / And I haven't even mentioned all those sponging socialists / I've got them on my list / And there's none of them be missed / There's none of them be missed.'

(courtesy of wiki)

smallfox2002 · 26/10/2016 20:29

I remember that.

No one missed him did they?

Bananagio · 26/10/2016 21:24

merrymouse, I remember the good old days too, finding Berlusconi hilarious and asking my Italian friends how on earth could that man represent their country. I used to think it couldn't happen here...

My Italian DP is rather smug that after years of me and our American friends asking 'but how?' re Berlusconi that he can now say 'Brexit? Farage? Trump? - but how?' back to us with bells on! And now instead of my U.K. family and friends asking incredulously about the state of Italian politics we are now sitting here in Rome in a constant state of disbelief at the news coming from the U.K.

RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 21:28

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/26/three-senior-leave-campaigners-elected-to-sit-on-a-powerful-new/
Michael Gove and other senior Leave campaigners elected to sit on powerful new Brexit committee

Tories: Michael Gove, John Whittingdale, Dominic Raab, Peter Lilley, Maria Caulfield, Andrea Jenkyns, Karl McCartney, Craig Mackinlay (all Leave), Alistair Burt and Jeremy Lefroy (both remain)

Labour: Hillary Benn (chair), Pat McFadden, Emma Reynolds, Seema Malhotra, Stephen Timms

Anna Soubry didn't make it on.

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mathanxiety · 26/10/2016 22:12

“What I do think is that the UK needs to lead in Europe,” she said. “I think over the years the UK has tended to take a view that Europe is something that is done to us, we have taken a rather backseat position to Europe, I think that when we go out there, when we can take the initiative and when we lead, we can achieve things. So I do think we need to make sure we are taking the lead.”

From TM's Goldman Sachs speech, from the Guardian link.

This is the old problem for Britain regarding the EU isn't it? Britain would neither lead nor follow.

The real problem in Britain's relationship with the EU is the failure to see the rest of the European states as equals and to become one of the team, not that Britain did not lead. It smacks of the child in the playground who wants the game going his way and if it doesn't then he will take the ball and leave.

Yet TM's only suggestion for Britain's uneasy relationship with the EU is to lead it.

smallfox2002 · 26/10/2016 22:16

Agreed Math, I think often the problem with Britain's relationship with the EU, especially in the public perception is that the other countries don't behave like dominions of empire and just do as they are told, and that British interests come first.

It even shows in the way that we are going about leaving tbh.

TheElementsSong · 26/10/2016 22:39

UKIP spokesperson on local news: "We've got real people there and sometimes things do boil over."

LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 10:19

Seems the UK government science budget is protected

www.theregister.co.uk/2016/10/26/brexit_and_science/

Universities and science minister Jo Johnson has promised that the UK government will not "dip into the ringfence" of the allocated science budget to underwrite EU funding following Blighty's departure from the European Union.

Prime Minister Theresa May has announced that the UK will formally begin the Brexit negotiation process after triggering Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty in March 2017.

Speaking at a Science and Technology Committee meeting on Wednesday, Johnson assured the committee that the government was working hard to ensure the UK science community gets a good deal from the negotiation process.

Johnson was joined by Robin Walker, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Department for Exiting the European Union, and Gareth Davies, Director General of Business and Science, as witnesses.

The committee was led by the newly elected Chair of the Science and Technology Committee, Stephen Metcalfe, who is also a Conservative MP for South Basildon and East Thurrock.

The government has attempted to ease scientists' worries over EU funding cuts. In August, the Chancellor, Philip Hammond, promised funding for projects signed before the Autumn Statement even if they stretched beyond the UK's exit from the European Union.

Johnson said that the government will make a "strong commitment" and not use any of the £26.3bn science budget pledged in April 2016 to support any funding which has been cut by the EU.

The precise figure of how much would be guaranteed by the Chancellor is difficult to determine because funding is given on a competitive basis, Johnson added.

Back in July, the minister announced he had set up a public inquiry to investigate cases of discrimination against UK scientists during the aftermath of the Brexit vote.

At a previous House of Lords committee, Johnson said he had received 132 emails but none with "concrete evidence" of discrimination at this point.

He did say, however, that two-thirds of the emails were to do with funding issues, while the remaining third were to do with mobility and immigration.

Although the cases concerning funding were being "dealt with", the immigration cases hang in the balance.

Free movement is strongly championed by the scientific community to attract talented scientists from overseas. But immigration is a contentious issue. May has always taken a hard line on immigration and has promised to curb numbers.

The witnesses at the committee meeting said they were not in a position to address immigration concerns as it was something that was still being determined by the Home Office.

But Johnson stated that his vision for science involved "strong collaboration" between scientists working in the UK and other countries.

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 10:35

yougov.co.uk/news/2016/10/27/what-would-make-leave-voters-change-their-mind-abo/

Important YouGov poll out today. What would make leavers change their mind about Brexit. I hope that the government are factoring this into their 'will of the people'.

Whilst these specific scenarios are enough to reverse approval of the referendum result, they are obviously dependent on those events coming to pass. And herein lies one of the problems for those seeking to keep Britain in the EU: Leave voters essentially see Brexit as a no-risk proposition. The overwhelming majority of Leave voters believe Brexit will either make things better, or at least not make things worse.

(The graph on Leave v Remain expectations HAS to be looked at - I can't post it here as its animated. Its pretty much reveals the key part of public opinion on Brexit. Leavers seem to be huge optimists compared to Remain pessimists).

I note at this point that Johnson has got himself a new advisor (May obviously approves of this one), David Frost. At the end of June (post ref) he wrote an article for the Telegraph:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/30/dont-panic-heres-how-brexit-can-make-britain-can-be-a-great-trad/

He wrote:
First, be realistic about how to negotiate Brexit. It will be our most complex negotiation ever. We can’t afford to get it wrong. Whole industries could be destroyed if we do so.

He then goes on to talk about the Norway option.

And here's another interesting titbit:

Matthew Holehouse ‏@mattholehouse
EU Commission confirms what we all knew: overhaul of rules on free movement and unemployment benefit were spiked until after Brexit vote

Ms Thyssen took the floor to point out that the issue now being put to the Commission of updating the rules coordinating social security systems was not a new one. It had been raised during two policy debates in July and October 2015 on the package of initiatives to be presented on the mobility of workers, but had been put on the back burner because of the UK referendum on EU membership in June.

So the rules on freedom of movement, looked like they were about to get an overhaul (and could still do) but this was not pressed ahead with because of the EU ref. Ouch.

There may however potentially be the room for movement on the principle that the German version of the CBI suggested and that has been suggested here (you have to have a job offer to move).

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes
Minister casually reveals existing ability of banks to operate in EU set to end. Remember the tax revenue that banks bring..^
Attached quote:
"If we can create a special hybrid version of that with a better version of equivalence or a different version of passporting, then that's what we will try to achieve," Garnier said by phone. "What we are not trying to do is fit into an existing box. We are trying to create a new model."

Asked if this meant passporting was likely to end but would hopefully be replaced with something else, he said: "Exactly".

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-26/banks-likely-to-lose-passporting-with-brexit-u-k-official-says
Banks Likely to Lose Passporting With Brexit, Official Says

Global banks will probably lose their current legal rights to provide services in the European Union after Brexit, the U.K.’s trade minister said in the most detailed outline yet of the government’s thinking.

Passporting, which allows London-based lenders and insurance companies to sell their services anywhere in the single market, is unlikely to continue after the U.K. leaves the 28-nation bloc, Mark Garnier said in an interview. He added that an alternative system that’s been floated, known as equivalence, was probably not going to be "good enough" for banks.

On a similar theme:
www.cityam.com/252338/lost-uk-influence-over-eu-financial-services-regulation?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Lost UK influence over EU financial services regulation could come back to bite the City

Please now refer to the above mentioned YouGov survey and Johnson's advisor and what could possibly go wrong...

With regard to not giving away the UK's negotiating position, and Fox's comments to the Common's select committee yesterday about wanting to do at deal at the same time as a50 deal:

Law and policy @Lawandpolicy
Shhh, nobody at the EU will know what Fox said to commons committee, as UK has not revealed its hand yet.

Oh.

Illegal Immigrant @AlexL_M
@Lawandpolicy Also, this just gives more leverage to the EU if they know Britain wants a sub-2yr negotiating agreement

It seems we don't even need leaks do we. Just ministers. Talking.

Back over in UKIP land what Brexit means:
Andrew James ‏@khutspe
#Brexit options: I'm posting a screen-shot in case this page from 24/1/2016 gets scrubbed form ukipdaily website
www.ukipdaily.com/eueea-or-eftaeea-opt-outs/

The EU referendum is winnable for the pro-democracy campaign if we engage the ‘undecideds’ with an option they feel easy about voting for. The two campaign teams will likely be aiming to influence this group of voters.

People vote for all kinds of reasons, so we need to choose an option they could find it easy to understand and vote for. In addition, winning by 51%, I feel, is not enough. We would be better by winning with 60% or more. Why? This could help expedite implementation and avoid years of negotiation – the Swiss bi-laterals took 10 years to complete.

What option could win over 60%? There is only one so far, and that is the EFTA/EEA option (European Free Trade Association and European Economic Area) where a Survation poll showed that 71% preferred it to EU/EEA which scored 29%.

What do we reckon? Will the link survive the day?

www.cer.org.uk/insights/seven-blunders-why-brexit-would-be-harder-brexiters-think
The seven blunders: Why Brexit would be harder than Brexiters think

Here's another article from april to reflect on.

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night
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RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 11:01

About that Nissan decision which will not be made public

Andrew Neil ‏@afneil
Reuters reports that Nissan will build its next new car development in Sunderland

Simon Jack ‏@BBCSimonJack
Nissan conform Qashqai and X-Trail (new) will be built at Sunderland securing 7,000 jobs after "support and assurances" from UK government

That could now get interesting if the UK can't get the deal it wants....

Why Zac Goldsmith might be toast (The Lib Dems must make sure they take this line)
eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/brexit-and-new-heathrow-runway-issues.html
Many commentators have suggested that there are enough votes in Parliament to approve the Heathrow runway. Therefore the main obstacle to the runway is a possible legal challenge. And a main argument cited in that potential challenge is EU law, namely the EU Directive on air pollution.

The Great Repeal Act (Which may well have enough support to block btw or get concessions out of the government) could get rid of this directive.

www.france24.com/en/20161027-eu-canada-trade-summit-cancelled-no-new-date-set-source?ref=tw_i
EU-Canada trade summit cancelled, no new date set: source

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-eu-referendum-germans-warned-not-to-speak-deutsch-in-public-a7382601.html
‘Sprich kein Deutsch’: Germans fear for place in post-Brexit Britain
German mother who has lived in London for 13 years says she no longer feels safe speaking her native language in public

The Telegraph ‏@Telegraph
Pound hits one-week high after data shows UK GDP grew by 0.5 per cent after Brexit vote
I can't quite believe that the Telegraph have actually tweeted this!

www.neweurope.eu/article/switzerland-towards-second-referendum-eu-migrants/
Switzerland towards a second referendum on EU migrants

The government is calling the bluff, planning its own referendum and framing the question more simply. “Close the Swiss borders to EU migrants and say goodbye Single European Market or preserve open borders.”

The Swiss Justice Minister Simonetta Sommaruga made the point succinctly: “you can’t have both” and “you have to decide.”

But the UK says WE WANT CAKE AND WE WANT TO EAT IT.

www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2016/oct/26/question-dodging-theresa-may-slipperiest-politician-equivocation?CMP=twt_gu
The art of question dodging: is Theresa May the slipperiest politician of them all?

Not much in this article but this point:
In two interviews Bull studied, she gave explicit replies just 14% and 41% of the time. The average is 46%.

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RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 11:19

Two very good institute for government pieces about what the government has done - and what it needs to do - to negotiate Brexit.

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/14823/simon-fraser-discusses-whitehall-and-negotiating-brexit/
Sir Simon Fraser opened his speech by explaining the three key deals he believes the UK will have to make with the European Union: one to exit (Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty), one to secure our future, and one to fill the gap in between.

The first two are accepted as conventional wisdom, and the last – ‘the interim deal’ – continues to be debated. Fraser believes an interim deal, bridging the gap between leaving the EU and concluding a permanent deal, is inevitable. But what that interim deal would look like is far less certain.

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/14819/what-the-government-needs-to-demonstrate-before-it-pulls-the-article-50-trigger/
This is a tick list of things the government needs to demonstrate before a50. Short and very simple to understand.

On Nissan:
Paul Brand ‏@PaulBrandITV
When I reported from Sunderland during #EUref some Nissan workers were even voting Brexit, insisting their company was scaremongering 1/2
But big test won't be this next model of Qashqai. With Brexit still over 2 years away, it's whether Nissan will build future models too. 2/2

Allie Renison ‏@AllieRenison
Indeed. Not sure if this = a multi-year investment, but Nissan may be relying on fact nothing changes for a few yrs

Nissan announcement might not be as significant as it sounds for this reason, especially if there is an interim deal on the cards.

And minutes after the Canadian PM cancels his trip to Europe to sign CETA...
Mustafa Bağ ‏@mustafa__bag
Breaking News: Belgians reach deal on EU Canada Free Trade Agreement (Belgian PM Charles Michel) #CETA (Reuters)

Brexit is having a good PR day for the most part though.

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TheNorthRemembers · 27/10/2016 11:39

Andrea Leadsom on the future of agriculture: www.fwi.co.uk/news/exclusive-leadsom-pledges-best-brexit-deal-farmers.htm What a lot of waffle. No wonder farmers are petrified.

LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 11:49

One of the key planks in avoiding violent revolutions is to keep the masses fed. Once this is achieved, as various unsavoury regimes the world over have shown, you can - literally - get away with murder.

The converse is also true. The time between now, and violent uprising is about a week after the shops run out of food.

Just remember how people acted on Black Friday about widescreen TVs.

Britain hasn't been self sufficient in food for centuries.

smallfox2002 · 27/10/2016 11:52

Nissan are going to be the qq in Sunderland!

smallfox2002 · 27/10/2016 11:56

So I wonder what guarantees they got.

Are we not having a hard brexit or are we coming out all together and being further subsidised.

squoosh · 27/10/2016 11:58

Yes, people will be agog to hear what lovely promises and assurances were made to the Nissan bods.