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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

OP posts:
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Peregrina · 27/10/2016 12:01

Leasdom talks about Cornish pasties and Scotch whisky. Does she know that they are protected under EU legislation? When that goes, anyone will be able to make Cornish pasties.

How does she expect us to export agricultural goods when we can't feed ourselves? Although the circumstances aren't the same, it could be another Irish famine in the making - in that whilst the potato crop was blighted the country was exporting grain.

SwedishEdith · 27/10/2016 12:06

Faisal IslamVerified account
‏@faisalislam
Greg Clark visited Japan to give assurances - deal done on presumption tariffs highly unlikely, either way Nissan won't be worse off

How does he know?

smallfox2002 · 27/10/2016 12:10

Probably because if there are tarrifs well be under wto rules so compensation as state aid allowed.

Otherwise it's going to be a fairly soft brexit.

You know Nissan will be building it's cars to EU regulation specificactions right folks?

LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 12:17

You know Nissan will be building it's cars to EU regulation specificactions right folks?

As would any car the UK built for any EU country. Only now, guess what ? We have no say in those specs. By the same token, if the UK decide to have a different spec to the rest of the EU, then we can jolly well pay for it, or whistle.

So right hand drive cars can be charged at 10%,20%,30% over a left hand drive. Unless we all buy Nissans, Hondas, Jaguars, or Land Rovers Hmm

Corcory · 27/10/2016 12:18

I see Nissan are going to build their new Qashqai in Sunderland after all!

squoosh · 27/10/2016 12:19

Have you only just found out?

whatwouldrondo · 27/10/2016 12:20

LurkingHusband Actually historically violent uprisings tend to happen at times when there has been an overall improvement in living standards but then a sudden deterioration, that pattern is there from the French Revolution through the Chartists to Tiannanmen. yes, I have written a couple of essays on it They also tend to happen when the liberal intelligentsia are raising issues with an authoritarian regime and a proletariat that has become politically aware joins in the protests to express frustration at a deterioration in their standard of living. I am not sure how that squares with present day British politics given the power of the right wing tabloids in shaping discourse, and the current demonisation of the liberal intelligentsia, unless they swap sides again in the face of their readers' experiences, especially given they are struggling with a falling readership. There is a good long read on the history of the tabloids and their lurch to the right in the Guardian today. www.theguardian.com/media/2016/oct/27/revenge-of-the-tabloids-brexit-dacre-murdoch?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

smallfox2002 · 27/10/2016 12:21

Which either means two the cocory, either they have been told that it's highly unlikely that there will be tariffs, indicating soft brexit or a variance of a Norway deal, and that if there are tariffs Nissan will get compensated.

Neither are an indication that brexit was a good idea.

squoosh · 27/10/2016 12:21

Will the breakdown of government assistance give to Nissan leak out?

prettybird · 27/10/2016 12:22

The Andrea Leadsome interview is from the school of Donald Trump essay writing and yes, I do know its a spoof, although when you listen to Trump, you do wonder Wink

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night
squoosh · 27/10/2016 12:25

I can see this is a short term win for TM but surely every big foreign manufacturer is now going to be looking for a little, or a lot, of whatever was promised to Nissan?

TheNorthRemembers · 27/10/2016 12:29

smallfox Didn't we Nissan get a 'Give us the money and noone gets hurt?!' deal?

LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 12:29

whatwouldrondo

Thanks for the depth, interesting points. Panem et circii is, I believe one of those rare, universal truths.

Peregrina · 27/10/2016 12:36

They also tend to happen when the liberal intelligentsia are raising issues with an authoritarian regime and a proletariat that has become politically aware joins in the protests to express frustration at a deterioration in their standard of living. I am not sure how that squares with present day British politics.......

Two out of three, IMO - liberal intelligentsia, authoritarian regime, but not yet there with the deterioration in the proletariat's standard of living.

whatwouldrondo · 27/10/2016 12:40

Lurking Or in the case of the Communist states in Eastern Europe and Cuba, Ice Cream and circuses, or maybe that is where some of them went wrong......

jaws5 · 27/10/2016 12:44

peregrina the third condition could be fulfilled soon, sadly, as others have pointed out UK relies on imports for food.
lurking panem et circii did spring to mind when I read the excellent long read in the Guardian today, about the British tabloids. It does end with a sobering thought though: the end of the tabloid could open the door to something worse, a totally post truth world.

jaws5 · 27/10/2016 12:47

whatwould that's very interesting, it's essential to keep analysing the current political process from a historical perspective, thank you!

Peregrina · 27/10/2016 12:47

I was thinking about the third condition with the Marmite shortage, but it then blew over. A shortage of some foodstuff more fundamental could be serious.

smallfox2002 · 27/10/2016 12:49

Squoosh and thenorth, it depends on what deal they got, paying the tariffs for them is illegal even under WTO rules.

The question needs to be asked then, what does this mean for being in the customs union and single market access?

Oh just to note, no one seems to have pointed out that UCAS has seen a 15% drop in EU students applying this year. This is just the Oxbridge round but that also means all of the other prestigious universities as well.

whatwouldrondo · 27/10/2016 12:54

Yes I was about to post that there is another unknown. There is no, or little, historical precedent for, social media. It certainly seemed to play a part in the Arab Spring and it's near contagion into a Jasmine Spring (but then that was effectively a contagion of a fear of a Jasmine Spring that resulted in a lurch to greater authoritarianism). Whether it just speeds up or cordinates dissent rather than shaping it as the tabloid press have done is up for debate. If anything I think it's very disparate nature makes it less likely to do that, it targets niches, like Mums, but it doesn't shape them.

Peregrina · 27/10/2016 12:57

I get a vague feeling that there is a slight move towards an EEA arrangement. Which would fit well enough with the Tory party manifesto, probably satisfy the middle ground of both Leavers and Remainers, but wouldn't meet Theresa May's anti-immigrant stance. Still, she could get round that by kicking out a few more black and brown faces and the racist bigots that she is courting will be happy.[Please don't think this last sentence is a view I subscribe to].

LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 12:59

Oh just to note, no one seems to have pointed out that UCAS has seen a 15% drop in EU students applying this year.

(adopts UKIP persona)

You say that like it's a bad thing ?

LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 13:02

wouldn't meet Theresa May's anti-immigrant stance. Still, she could get round that by kicking out a few more black and brown faces and the racist bigots that she is courting will be happy

As the recent Appeal Court ruling on the Home Offices disgraceful, illegal behaviour (I blame the boss) shows, these would still need to be lawful. And that means within the parameters of the ECHR.

I am looking forward to the thicker end of the leave spectrum becoming confused that the UK is still a signatory to the ECHR despite being "out of Europe".

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 13:13

Toyota are not happy...

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes
Now a 2nd car company, Toyota, call on Downing Street to offer "fair treatment" to whole industry .. but what guarantees was Nissan given?

election-data.co.uk/
Election Data has held a number of focus groups in Oldham and Rochdale about political issues. They have posted videos of a male group and a female group talking about Labour/Blair/Corbyn, is the country heading in the right or wrong direction? immigration and Brexit.

These are people who have voted Labour in the past and now intend to vote UKIP.

Its interesting to watch. I'm a northerner and they are very 'normal' and like people I know and work with. They come across as intelligent and generally politically interested and knowledgeable. Definitely not stupid (and I stress that). What I DO notice from what they say is a general confusion and mistaking one idea/problem as being caused by something that is incorrect. A couple even comment a couple of times that they find current politics confusing. Corbyn totally baffles them (as a northern I totally get why, though I do generally understand his ideological point of view. His manner is very alien to northern culture which has a tendency to be more blunt and straight to the point than the south can be). And there is a HUGE regurgitation of tabloid newspaper headlines which play principally on fear. There is a massive appetite for change in politics and to get rid of the 'bullshit'. There is a real lack of understanding of what happens now for Brexit (with the expectation that we should have left by now and its that simple). There is also no one to really challenge those views because they are reinforced by what others in the room say.

Tbh, I don't think there is a huge amount in there I find surprising. Its more interesting to actually see it in this way so clearly (without Question Time style shouting or confrontation). I found one comment about Corbyn - and the Labour party 'having ideas above its station' quite telling (but again nothing new). The woman's group all voted leave apart from two. One of these had a daughter at university who was studying.... you've guessed it - journalism - who explained it all to her mother so she voted Remain.

If there is one thing that has come out of these threads its the reality that intelligent people who are vaguely interested in politics still don't understand a lot of aspects of them and find them very inaccessible. I think it ALL needs to be seen in this context.

I really, really don't buy into the 'stupid leavers' narrative. I do buy into confused, alienated people who have at times been deliberately shut out of politics by spin and barriers to politics have been put up whilst they have been fed a diet of other bullshit from the newspapers.

Its hard to know where we go from here in this respect. I do strongly feel that the stupid tag is harmful but it can be frustrating if you hear comments like this from people who do lack the full knowledge and access and ability to question things further.

A lot of what they say has merit in terms of problems but not cause. Its just their concerns are very mixed up. Things that are xenophobic are said, but there is a complete lack of awareness of it and a feeling of justification for what they say, whilst at the same time they talk about the foreigners they know as not being like THOSE bad foreigners. They have an idea which they have taken hold ownership of and apply to life, but are able to make rational exceptions to examples they experience in life rather than question the idea that they have in their heads.

By the same token, I said at the time of the campaign that 'Project Fear' was wrong in many aspects and was obviously aggressive in its own way of trying to scare people out of voting Leave, but there were many aspects in there that needed to be given a lot more attention and consideration. But because politics is not trusted, the automatic assumption was to agree with the idea in the head rather than one that challenged that thinking. (There was A LOT that was wrong on many levels with the remain campaign).

If you have the time, its worth watching as it is fascinating - go into it with an open mind though. I'd say the female focus group is more interesting than the male one.

Which brings me to this long read:
www.theguardian.com/media/2016/oct/27/revenge-of-the-tabloids-brexit-dacre-murdoch?CMP=share_btn_tw
Revenge of the tabloids
Rocked by the phone-hacking scandal and haemorrhaging readers, the rightwing tabloids seemed to beyesterday’s news.But now, in Theresa May’s Brexit Britain, theylook more powerful than ever

OP posts:
MitzyLeFrouf · 27/10/2016 13:16

Every other car manufacturer is going to be straight on the blower to May. Okay Theresa so you've appeased Nissan with god knows what kind of promises, but obviously now they're all going to want the same.

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