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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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Thread gallery
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merrymouse · 26/10/2016 13:00

Maybe May could confuse the enemy by having a pro-remain conservative run in Richmond...

ManonLescaut · 26/10/2016 13:20

So the UK will have to negotiate the terms of its membership of the WTO. With the organisation itself, or with the other members?

Sort of both. A UK schedule would be drawn up, and it would have to be agreed by the other members.

LurkingHusband · 26/10/2016 13:27

It is really interesting to read all these insights about Zac Goldsmith, as I didn't know very much about him before

I know sins of the father and all that, but Sir James "Jammy" Goldsmith was ... a character. Richard Ingrams wrote a facinating book about the legal battle between Goldsmith and Private Eye in the 1970s.

And does anyone remember the 1997 election, where Goldsmith behaved disgracefully, taunting David Mellor (who lost) at the Putney count ?

James Goldsmith was standing for the "Referendum Party". I wonder what happened to them ?

It's at 2:45

Lico · 26/10/2016 13:28

French who have lived in the UK for decades are suffering abuse after Brexit, says Ambassador.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-abuse-french-france-racism-xenophobia-eu-vote-a7379176.html

Palermonese · 26/10/2016 13:33

Not just French ... I'm hearing some real old-school comments, with my non-English surname. I grew up with it, but it's quite upset my wife to be asked when she's "going home then".

DS said he will punch the first person who dares say it to him. Possibly a tad overstated although it's exactly what I did growing up

AmberEars · 26/10/2016 13:37

Place marking

LurkingHusband · 26/10/2016 13:52

Going back to Sir Jams Fishpaste Grin re-reading his Wiki entry it seems he actually had quite cogent and well formed reasons for leaving the EU - certainly much more that the rabble rousing "foreigners out" which dominated the recent debate.

Although he still doesn't strike me as being a very nice man.

CeciledeVolanges · 26/10/2016 14:15

Agreed Lurking (shockingly) but that doesn't mean it is the time or the way to leave now as we are :(

smallfox2002 · 26/10/2016 14:20

A lot of Goldsmith's polciy was anti migration and movement of people though.

merrymouse · 26/10/2016 14:46

As well as containing German School the Richmond Park constituency is 10/11 tube stops from South Kensington and the French Lycee.

whatwouldrondo · 26/10/2016 14:52

To be fair Sir James did not put in much of an appearance in Zac and his sibling's childhoods, he was overseas a lot of the time with one or other of his other two families, there was as much in the gossip pages as there was in the political pages. Their mother carried on the Referendum Party's work through the "Democracy" movement "in memory of Jimmy" but there is little suggestion here that any of their issues arose from free movement or immigration. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Movement

Perhaps that was an influence on Zac's views on the EU but it is entirely possible his rebellion on the vote on the rights of EU migrants was equally a matter of principle, rather than tactical, it certainly was for Tania Mathias who has spoken up for the rights of refugees having worked in a refugee camp herself. I do think his interest and views on the environment are his own and his principles deeply held.

His possibly unconscious implicit racism in the mayoral campaign is another matter though.

smallfox2002 · 26/10/2016 15:01

On James own views:

"In 1993 he published The Trap, a book detailing his political philosophical thoughts, giving a critique of the dominance of Neo-Liberalism in the governments of the First World, and its ideological dogmatic pursuance of Free Trade and the facilitation of the American Melting Pot societal model being copied by the rest of its nations through mass foreign migration driven by economics, which he posited was fatally flawed in societal concept and brought with it great societal dangers. As an economic alternative he espoused a restoration of Classical Liberalism, and a return to Mercantilism, and the prevention by governmental action of mass migrations by populations from poorer areas of the globe into the First World driven by economic motivation, which he foresaw as an inevitability of escalating Third World population demographics and First World governmental Neo-Liberal and Socialist ideologies."

shirleyknotanotherbot · 26/10/2016 15:05

Placemarking. Please do keep up the good work.

whatwouldrondo · 26/10/2016 15:09

It is a little difficult to disentangle the demographic data because the Richmond borough covers part of both Richmond Park and Twickenham constituencies and the Richmond Park constituency covers the northern part of Kingston borough too. However Richmond Park covers the most affluent part of Richmond borough and least ethnically diverse in terms of black and minority ethnic. However it has the highest proportion of white other "Almost 10% of the borough’s population falls within the “white - other white” category. Barnes and South Richmond wards have a large proportion of residents in the “white - white other” category”, 16.5% and 18.2% respectively. The group includes white people not classified as either “White British” or “White Irish”. As these are two of the most affluent wards and part of the Richmond Park constituency the figures are likely to be an indication of the extent of the proportion of wealthy residents who originate overseas, and the nature of their communities. Not all will have a vote but they certainly influence the nature and attitudes within those communities.

RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 15:55

blogs.channel4.com/gary-gibbon-on-politics/richmond-byelection-zac-goldsmith-insurgent-candidate/33752
Richmond by-election: Zac Goldsmith the insurgent candidate

1st Dec being touted.
Lib Dems have their leaflets printed. Tim is in Town. But senior Lib Dems think the bookies have over stated their chances of winning.
(Odds have lengthened on the LDs slightly since yesterday and the announcement that the Cons would not stand another candidate. They are currently evens).

This is the most qualified electorate in the country – 64 per cent of the voters here have degrees.

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OlennasWimple · 26/10/2016 16:04

Excellent OP again, RTB

The student deportation stuff is grim reading: all driven by the policy to reduce net migration, of course

RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 16:13

ukpollingreport.co.uk/2015guide/richmondpark/
Richmond Park profile

Look at the ages. Babyboomerville it is not.

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merrymouse · 26/10/2016 16:25

I think Richmond Park is the kind of constituency where the thing that unites people is wealth and career rather than background.

As with other parts of London, many (most?) residents weren't born there.

RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 16:26

Matthew Holehouse @mattholehouse
[Liam] Fox confirms to European Scrutiny committee that without UK insistence, CETA likely to have avoided mixed agreement.

Captain Haddock ‏@JXB101
@mattholehouse @jonworth So the UK blew CETA up??

Jon Worth ‏@jonworth
@JXB101 It set the course to allow CETA to be blown up, yes.

Steve Peers ‏@StevePeers
Hmm. So the UK position was actually a major factor in CETA being blocked

And in Kipperland
Chris Ship ‏@chrisshipitv
So @UKIP report finds it "impossible to determine" whether a @UKIP MEP punched a colleague in the face

And people want them in government?!

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LurkingHusband · 26/10/2016 16:29

How to win friends and influence people Tory stylee ?

RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 16:34

Richard Corbett ‏@RCorbettMEP
In EP debate today, Farage calls Clegg and Miliband Nazi collaborators, and #UKIP MEPs give ovation to Le Pen. UKIP again disgracing itself

This is Miliband who family fled Europe from the Nazis due to Jewish heritage and Nick Clegg whose mother was interned by the Japanese.

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merrymouse · 26/10/2016 16:41

it makes me want to scream. Farage is having a go at them for not wanting to leave the single market, BUT WE HAVENT HAD A REFERENDUM ON TVE SINGLE MARKET!!!, or any kind of demicratic vote on the single market for that matter.

merrymouse · 26/10/2016 16:46

And the European Parliament are listening to this man represent the UK, while his MPs are being investigated for a punch up.

If the EU was a night club he would have been banned.

I remember the good old days when only we used to laugh at Berlisconi and Italy. How could seemingly sane people end up with such an awful man as their leader? The show is on the other foot now. (I know Farage isn't in charge, but May has adopted his policies).

merrymouse · 26/10/2016 16:48

(Apologies for dodgy syntax. Cross!)

jaws5 · 26/10/2016 17:49

merrymouse, I remember the good old days too, finding Berlusconi hilarious and asking my Italian friends how on earth could that man represent their country. I used to think it couldn't happen here...

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