Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 10:36

Indeed it does Cecilede. Its a concern, but winning the first ruling might be enough in terms of political pressure anyway and buys times.

We still have the first ruling to get through anyway.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 10:46

Goldsmith could still run as a tory rather than independent. Here's why:

Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh
CCHQ backing for Zac suggests he cdve run as a Tory. And @stephenkb points out a key reason why running as an independent is dangerous:
Attached quote:
Goldsmith risks having the worst of all worlds. I'm waiting to hear whether or not the party will make its resources freely available to Goldsmith, but it is hard to see how, without taking an axe to data protection laws, he can make use of Conservative VoterID or information gathered in his doomed mayoral campaign

This would, especially if Labour didn't stand, make the by-election a straight vote on Brexit as he couldn't really claim any level of moral integrity if he did stand as a Tory and if he didn't have the data his campaigning will be a lot harder.

Oh dear. He really is in a bit of a corner.

OP posts:
StripeyMonkey1 · 26/10/2016 10:57

I just read the Finnis article. I don't know the content of the double tax treaty with Russia but I wonder whether it could be distinguished in the sense that it imposes obligations on UK citizens but does not confer rights. If so, then the two are not directly comparable. Termination of the UK-Russia tax treaty then removes no tangible UK citizen rights (such as the social and employment protections conferred by EU law) and therefore can be done by the executive.

I now wait to be corrected on this by someone who does know what the relevant treaties actually say.

CeciledeVolanges · 26/10/2016 10:59

Would anyone be interested in a quick clarificatory blog post? To be honest, I'm tired and busy at work and typing out my explanation with my thumbs on a phone doesn't sound very attractive to me. Sorry to be so lazy.

TheBathroomSink · 26/10/2016 11:15

Emilio Casalicchio @e_casalicchio
Top Labour source confirms Labour WILL stand a candidate in Richmond Park, despite calls from Lewis, Nandy, Reynolds.

George Eaton @georgeeaton
Labour will be standing a candidate in Richmond by-election, I'm told.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 26/10/2016 11:21

Labour might as well not bother, TBH.

RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 11:26

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham
Since Conservative Party Conference the notional cost of servicing our national debt has risen by ~ £7bn per annum.

EU membership did cost £8bn per year (now also since risen due to pound).

Robert Peston on GE:
www.facebook.com/pestonitv/posts/1718623698462368
Zac Goldsmith wants the Richmond Park by-election to be "a referendum" on whether Theresa May is right to have authorised the building of a third runway at Heathrow.
But that is a bit of a joke. Because - as he surely knew - the only credible challenger candidate will be the LibDem candidate, and LibDem policy is to oppose all airport expansion in the South East.
So the by-election will much more likely be a mini referendum on whether the country was right to choose Brexit, because Goldsmith was and is a Brexiteer and the LibDems are in deep mourning for our lost EU membership.
And with Richmonders overwhelmingly pro-EU, Goldsmith's grip on this seat is by no means super-glued.
How has it come to this?
Well it is because May lacked the bottle to put up a Tory candidate to challenge the now "independent" Goldsmith, even though Goldsmith was savage in his criticism of her decision to sanction Heathrow - because she was advised that splitting the right-wing vote would let in the LibDems.
So what the Goldsmith resignation and Heathrow shows is how perilously weak the government led by Theresa May is, with its tiny majority of 10 (post the Goldsmith defection) and Tory MPs taking lumps out of each other on Heathrow, grammar schools and - above all - the true meaning of Brexit.
The big fact about the May administration is that she is a strong character in charge of structurally feeble government - a ruling party riven by personal and ideological divisions, almost all of the animosities stemming from Tory MPs' competing religious beliefs about what our future relationship with the EU should be.
That extraordinary weakness is visible in May granting a licence to Boris Johnson to thumb his nose at the boldest decision she has taken so far, the runway construction (and the identical licence granted to the education secretary Justine Greening, who is so far not using it as conspicuously).
None of this feels sustainable - given that May faces challenges of a complexity and magnitude no British government has faced since 1945, namely how to reconcile control of immigration with an economic and trade policy that doesn't impoverish us, and how simultaneously to keep the United Kingdom intact.
So in spite of her protestations that she does not want an early general election, it is increasingly difficult to see how she can negotiate Brexit and the maintenance of Scotland within the union unless she wins a personal mandate by going to the country - and probably as soon as next year.
The alternative will be chronic instability, endemic crisis, which she won't like and the country will rue.

CeciledeVolanges it would be nice if you got the time and have the motivation. Your last blog was good to read.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 11:35

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/undivided-campaign-brexit-young-people_uk_580f6dc0e4b0fce107d2088d?
Undivided Campaign Launched To Demand Best Brexit For Young People
Leaders of the campaign are a mix of leave and remain voters.

news.sky.com/story/brexit-will-not-cause-uk-trade-disruption-wto-boss-10632803
Brexit will not cause UK trade 'disruption' - WTO boss
Roberto Azevedo dismisses fears Britain could suffer a sudden seizure of trade during or after its negotiations with the EU.

OP posts:
PattyPenguin · 26/10/2016 12:02

Azevedo has changed his tune.

One quote is important, I think.

""The UK is a member of the WTO today, it will continue to be a member tomorrow. There will be no discontinuity in membership.

"They have to renegotiate (their terms of membership) but that doesn't mean they are not members."

So the UK will have to negotiate the terms of its membership of the WTO. With the organisation itself, or with the other members?

The members, according to the WTO website - "“Any state or customs territory having full autonomy in the conduct of its trade policies is eligible to accede to the WTO on terms agreed between it and WTO Members”. (Article XII of the WTO Agreement)."
www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/acc_e/acces_e.htm

Admittedly that page is headed "How to become a member of the WTO" and deals with those states not already a member. But the quote above from Azevedo seems to suggest that the UK, in changing from being a member as part of the EU to being a member on its own, will have to go through this process.

Am I reading this wrong?

LurkingHusband · 26/10/2016 12:09

We'll probably be put on an emergency tax code.

Let's see how they like that.

RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 12:11

Pm Questions so far:

"It is very clear. I have said it is very clear. I will continue to be very clear."

Seems to be the answer to just about every question. Which of course begs the question of why, if it is so clear, that MPs from both sides of the House keep on having to reiterate the same question?

Good show from Corbyn on that one.

He has just said he looked to quote the great philosophers to describe the situation and the best he could come up with Baldrick and his Cunning Plan.

OP posts:
LurkingHusband · 26/10/2016 12:14

Go Jezza !

I still can't ever see myself voting Labour though.

SwedishEdith · 26/10/2016 12:19

Robert Peston ‏@Peston 4m4 minutes ago
.@theresamay keeps saying she'll deliver best deal for biz "operationally within the EU". Feels like a shift but I'm not sure what it means
0 replies 6 retweets 7 likes

LurkingHusband · 26/10/2016 12:23

theresamay keeps saying she'll deliver best deal for biz "operationally within the EU"

The only way to do that is to keep FOM.

squoosh · 26/10/2016 12:26

May is bloody useless at PMQs!

LurkingHusband · 26/10/2016 12:31

May is bloody useless at PM Qs!

Fixed that for you Grin

SwedishEdith · 26/10/2016 12:32

Weirdly, I actually think she comes across as quite sincere at PMQs. And when I see her smiling warmly when she meets foreign leaders, she looks genuinely thrilled to meet them. Of course, doesn't stop her being useless (and I'm still undecided about that), but she's warmer than I expected her to be. Which is from a base of -35 though.

squoosh · 26/10/2016 12:32

Ha. Quite right Lurking. Grin

squoosh · 26/10/2016 12:35

She made some vomtastic gag last week when she hoped Peter Bone would get an appropriate birthday gift from his wife.

RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 12:35

Tony Robinson ‏@Tony_Robinson
Baldrick means Baldrick #pmqs

No mention in Heathrow in PMQs so far. Missed opportunity.

OP posts:
SwedishEdith · 26/10/2016 12:37

Oh, I can see my MP - oi, where's my reply from you?

RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 12:37

Oh here we go. Tania Mathias CON asking about how it can be delivered within environmental air quality.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 12:37

Boris was in the background and looked unimpressed at the response.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 26/10/2016 12:42

Four questions about mental health and breaking manifesto promises so far. From Con and Labour.

OP posts:
CeciledeVolanges · 26/10/2016 12:46

It is really interesting to read all these insights about Zac Goldsmith, as I didn't know very much about him before. Thanks Red :)

Swipe left for the next trending thread