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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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tiggytape · 03/11/2016 13:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ManonLescaut · 03/11/2016 13:17

You can't 'cherry pick' parliamentary sovereignty: either parliament is sovereign or it isn't. If it is, then a decision of this importance must be debated.

As a Remainer I'm not expecting to parliamentary debate to overturn the leave vote.

My main concern is the deeply worrying precedent it would set for the cabinet to act without parliament on an issue of this importance.

ManonLescaut · 03/11/2016 13:18

which they would have been more than happy to respect no questions asked if it had gone the other way.

Totally disagree, it's got to be done by the book whichever way the cookie crumbles.

LurkingHusband · 03/11/2016 13:23

It's interesting how sometimes events have to play out before people can realise their significance - even though the possibilities were there before the event.

In this case, slowly coming into focus (despite it being commented on before) is the 2019 A50 completion date. Which was always a stretch at best.

It seems would could be moving into a future where the 2020 election will straddle - if not precede - the A50 process. This would lead to a nightmare scenario for the Tories of the public being able to choose between two Brexit choices, if not return a non-Brexit government in the shape of a LibDem/ConRemain beast of many arses.

We live in interesting times.

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 13:38

tiggy I think that's an unfair assessment in part.

I think there is some remainers who want to block brexit.
I also think that there are remainers who want proper scrutiny of how we leave and responsible assessment of our options now.

This may or may not include still leaving. The point is that they felt that the referendum campaigning (on both sides I might add) was so full of bullshit that we need to go back and examine it properly and decide again.

That's not to say another referendum on whether we should leave or not (though another referendum on the deal might be appropriate).

I personally also found the attempted power grab by government which bypassed parliament alarming and regard it as a separate issue (though inextricably linked to Brexit). If we leave then having appropriate checks and balances to power (which the EU has in part provided for many years) is essential to establish.

Its about public confidence in ensuring that rights will be respected and recognised and not just ridden rough shot.

I think your interpretation is oversimplified.

There are plenty of reasons to cheer todays ruling even if you support Brexit.

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LurkingHusband · 03/11/2016 13:45

If we have to have Brexit, then it has to be as populist as possible, or we leave the door open for generations of internecine politicking - and worse - as people will forever have a valid grievance that they were ignored.

The history of the "U"K - in particular the recent history of Northern Ireland - stands as a terrible illustration of the dangers of marginalising "minorities" that aren't.

tiggytape · 03/11/2016 13:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 13:52

And the mail attack the decision...

Not with a critique of the decision. Nope but by an ad hominem attack (always a sign you are loosing the argument when you resort to this tactic) on the judges.

Yep they did attack one purely on the basis that they are an openly gay ex-Olympian.

Nice use of homophobia there.

Btw this is Vote Leave's Dominic Cummings on the ruling:

odysseanproject ‏@odysseanproject
1/ NB. @vote_leave won cos we froze out of important decisions almost all those you see babbling nonsense re the court judgment today
2/ ‘Ricardo’ the alpha VL legal expert knows more than MPs, said weeks ago 'Govt has mishandled case, 75% chance it loses’. Nobody listened
3/ The judgment has some bad bits but OUTers should ignore that & focus on the heart of it - AT HEART IT IS REASONABLE
4/ Why? Because Parliamentary sovereignty means Govt cannot (& shd not try to) change domestic law by use of the prerogative
5/ Triggering A50 without PARL approval wd breach this principle cos wd create a situation in which ECA72 MUST be repealed
6/ OUT MPs: deep breath & stick to important principles of how a serious country works & focus on winning PARL battles, not confused whining
7/ Judicial activism is big problem but that is not the point today - we won to make UK a serious country, this is > important than tactics
8/ Judgment does not mean serious change in probability of repealing ECA72, forex mrkts irrational/inefficient as usual on this subject
9/ It is foolish to undermine an important principle cos cross re an (unnecessary) tactical setback
10/ It wd be wiser to focus on actually beating those who ARE trying to stop repeal of ECA, not mistaken complaints re Courts
11/ Govt briefed lawyers badly. Shd cut losses drop appeal & overrule officials. Smash INers in PARL & media not prolong likely doomed fight

Like the a50 ruling itself, difficult to argue against. And I can not stand this man.

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night
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MitzyLeFrouf · 03/11/2016 13:53

'internecine'

I had to take a squizz at that in the dictionary. Good word!

Mistigri · 03/11/2016 13:53

MPs had already voted by a huge majority to hold a referendum and did so knowing the promise was to respect the outcome (not legally binding but, politically, that was the promise. The vote was held in the belief that Article automatically follow and nobody (or few) objected to that at the time).

This is factually incorrect in many ways, though:

  • MPs could have voted to make the referendum legally binding; they didn't
  • many promises have been made, some contradictory. Which is more binding: a referendum or a manifesto promise?
  • while the government may be politically bound (as long as you ignore point 2 above), it backbench MPs are not, and nor is the opposition.
ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 03/11/2016 14:03

TM will be sorry she lost Goldsmith.
He's definitely a Leave vote, now gone.

Bolshybookworm · 03/11/2016 14:06

My MP is Philip Davies. There's really no point in me writing to the pea brained, sanctimonious prick him, is there?

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 14:19

Cameron was completely clear that he would trigger Article 50 without consulting Parliament and, if the legality of this was ever questioned, it wasn't a questioned very widely or very loudly. Nobody minded when it didn't look likely. That's what gives leavers basis to twitch about stitch-ups now I think.

Personally I think that all comes down to how much people understood a50. (As in they didn't).

Certainly I only became aware of the constitutional implications and the method by which you exited the EU and the existence of a50 really until after the fact, as the mechanisms of how you exit, it became important.

I think there was something going around a couple of days before virally, but that's about it, and it wasn't obvious just how important it would be at that stage.

I knew a tiny bit about a50 prior to referendum day but certainly did not fully appreciate it or how it worked. I did however express the opinion of problems with political vacuums, constitutional issues and rights before the referendum.

It was dismissed by a lot of people as scaremongering. (Though it did get through to a couple of others).

People weren't listening to a lot of what was said by that point as they had already made up their minds and the mechanisms of leaving were simply a footnote to proceedings as everyone was so worked up about other issues and no one knew what to trust and what was legitimate.

And if I was missing that bit of the jigsaw, you have to ask how many people would get that bit of the jigsaw? And how would you make people aware of its significance because its proved to be a complex issue both legally and politically.

It just come back to the decision to hold a referendum in the first place and just how well the bill was scrutised by the commons and the lords. (As in not sufficiently) and by extension the press who are also supposed to point out failings like this.

We are already forgetting pre-Referendum politics and knowledge here tbh.

If one thing GOOD thing does come out of the referendum it HAS to be greater scrutiny of government as its pretty obvious that this is one of our biggest issues and problems facing us as a country. A lack of scrutiny is allowing, frankly corrupt behaviour. It exists at all levels of local government and public service. Its why we've pissed so much money up the wall for the last 30 years and why the NHS is on its knees.

I think everyone can agree on this point, regardless of how they voted. I see no valid reason why they should not.

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LurkingHusband · 03/11/2016 14:24

So, if my understanding is right, parliament is probably going to ask lots of awkward questions require a lot more detail about what "Brexit" is before they feel competent - or authorised - to vote on A50 ?

Is this where we're told that Fox and Davis have spent 4 months playing each other at Candy Crush ?

dudleymcdudley · 03/11/2016 14:29

To now demand a vote on Article 50 isn't about constitutional niceties as remainers claim but is a cynical attempt to undermine the will of the people which they would have been more than happy to respect no questions asked if it had gone the other way.

I completely disagree with this.

We live in a democratic country, not a dictatorship. Governments must govern in all circumstances by the relevant constitutional rules. This applies in the context of a referendum just as in any other situation.

There is a massive difference between a Leave win and a Remain win - the latter would NOT entail a constitutionally significant act like invoking Article 50.

The fact that none of this was adequately considered prior to the Referendum does not mean it's playing out now is a cynical attempt by "Remoaners".

ManonLescaut · 03/11/2016 14:32

Cameron was completely clear that he would trigger Article 50 without consulting Parliament

I'm not sure that's true. He said he would honour the outcome of the referendum, he didn't say he would do so without proper parliamentary procedure.

Mistigri · 03/11/2016 14:34

RTB - before June 23rd i suspect that only a small number of people, almost all of them lawyers, had any real understanding of how legally, constitutionally and practically complex many aspects of brexit would prove.

I have been following David Allen Green's blog for quite some time (since well before Brexit; he was very good on the disaster that was Chris Grayling at the MoJ) so I had a small inkling but a lot of the constitutional stuff was only really debated post the referendum. And as an affected expat I followed the EU law blog (Steve peers) but much of it went right over my head...

ManonLescaut · 03/11/2016 14:40

I think Leave voters tend to fail to grasp the political implications of subverting normal parliamentary process and an executive power grab.

Equally, the responsibilty for the Iraq fuckup falls squarely on Blair's shoulders as he's the one who pushed it through. Likewise, without parliamentary debate, all the responsibilty for the consequences of A50 falls on the cabinet. Right now they are picturing glory. But if (when) it fucks up - the blame, shame and humiliation heaps on them. It's actually in their interest to make this parliament's decision, to spread the responsibility.

dudleymcdudley · 03/11/2016 14:45

Agreed Manon hence I think they're idiots to have even tried to avoid Parliament in the first place.

But the Iraq war isn't a direct comparison as it wasn't at that point unconstitutional to avoid Parliamentary approval for waging war as I understand it.

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 15:12

Mistigri I've followed David Allen Green since the London Riots so I'm also something of a fan, and even then...

Owen Jones ‏@OwenJones84
High Court judgement will be spun as 'elites versus the people' and makes an early election disaster for Labour more likely.

Andrew Marr ‏@AndrewMarr9
Also interesting - compareTim Montgomerie tweet

Tim Montgomerie ‏@montie
Personally, think Gov wrong to appeal. Shld hold vote asap and prepare emergency Elxn plans if pro-Remain MPs/peers seek to redefine #Brexit

Those rumblings of an early election just won't go away will they...

And as I write that, Marr has just written exactly the same thing:

Andrew Marr ‏@AndrewMarr9
May's parliamentary position is quite weak: but her political position is strong. The Theresa Paradox of Nov 2016. Why GE spec won't go away

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whatwouldrondo · 03/11/2016 15:27

I would have thought that one thing that could unite us, whatever our views on the EU, was pride in our traditions of parliamentary democracy. It has kept us safe from extremes where many more carefully crafted constitutions have failed. The road that Theresa May was taking of implementing a plan for this important legal, constitutional and economic issue for the country through executive action claiming the mandate off the "will of the people" does not have a good historic record. Even the CCP claim to be ruling by executive action with the mandate of the "will of the people" until such time as they are ready for democracy..... This was just too important an issue for there to be any excuse for it to be actioned behind closed doors.

Chardonnay As a side issue I think this decision coming now is a problem for Zac because it is focusing Richmond park voters on the fact that whilst many enjoy the romance of his stand on principle, and so feel a certain loyalty, at the end of the day they will have a buccaneering free market type of Brexiteer representing them in Parliament. Whatever the more complex reasons behind the 70/30 split between remain and leave even those workers that don't work in financial services or the creative industries (and 62% of those in employment commute to the City or West End) I am sure that those employed in the hospitality, retail and leisure industries are well aware that their businesses rely on the money that is generated by those industries and the importance of the single market to them. I am quite sure the voters would vote for a soft Brexit versus Zac's hard version in an even more overwhelming majority.

ManonLescaut · 03/11/2016 15:29

But the Iraq war isn't a direct comparison as it wasn't at that point unconstitutional to avoid Parliamentary approval for waging war as I understand it.

Sure, which is why I said 'equally' as it was not an example of the unconstitutionality I mentioned in the first sentence, but a separate point.

The Iraq war wasn't unconstitutional in itself - but there are parallels with Brexit in that a) it was championed by a minority (of 1 - Blair), and b) the conclusion now is that the planning and conduct "went badly wrong, with consequences to this day".

Key Chilcot findings applicable to Brexit:

  • The case... was presented with "a certainty which was not justified".
  • It was based on "flawed" intelligence... which was not challenged as it should have been.
  • Planning was... "wholly inadequate".

One could almost write the findings of the Chilcott II Report: A Dog's Brexit now.

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 16:05

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes
Where does today's Article 50 ruling leave Theresa May's election decision? Some points to argue over:

Gaming it out - thought on today's Article 50 ruling

1) Lawyers believe the government has little chance of winning the Supreme Court appeal.
2) By insisting on the appeal, however, government has paused any action on Article 50 until Jan.
3) The legislation authorising article 50 will be complicated - there could be amendments on second referendums, level of detail of negotiating strategy, red lines. Ping pong possible.
4) So its going to take months to get through Commons and Lords. It is very hard to see Article 50 bill becoming law before end of March. Will it even be done inside a year?
5) That means that number 10 won't get the clear year it wants between EU exit (which would have been March 2019) and the official date of the next election (May 2020).
6) Consider this: there is no way there will be a general election BEFORE Article 50 triggered. It would then likely turn into a proxy EU referendum 2. Ministers are very clear about that.
7) This means you can't say the consequences of today's vote is a May 2017 election since this would take place before Article 50 has been triggered.
8) Since MPs and Peers almost all say they will "respect the will of the people", government is likely just to have to wait it out without an election unless the legislation fails
9) If Article 50 legislation on statue books by the turn of the year, and Article 50 then triggered. 2020 general election looks less appealing as exit and vote too close together - economic risk.
10) So Theresa May might then want to go for an election shorty after the a50 legislation gets on the statute book - early 2018 - rather than waiting. So early election - but not next year.

And there you have the reason why May and the government are just so desperate to have triggered a50 by the end of March. Its purely political and about the next election not the national interest.

May is running out of opinions.

Its also worth noting she delayed Heathrow decision by a year. So its now possibly going to clash right with the a50 bill. That's probably not something she wants. Especially since Court challenges to Heathrow are focused on EU law over pollution and getting Heathrow through might well rely on repeal on these laws post Brexit.

She also has the grammar schools thing which is likely to now come before a50 is done and she's likely to be defeated on that.

May is starting to look like a total liability even to Leavers in the Tory Party. Especially BECAUSE the government intend to appeal the a50 decision. Its her decision making that has led to this situation and this could have been largely avoided by starting September with a50 in parliament.

Oh and Richmond just got even more interesting.

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LurkingHusband · 03/11/2016 16:07

as it wasn't at that point unconstitutional to avoid Parliamentary approval for waging war as I understand it.

One of lifes cruel ironies for David Cameron is he will be forgotten as the Prime Minister who changed the way wars are declared, and called a parliamentary vote on it for Syria, which he lost and respected.

But then Blair will be forgotten as the Prime Minister of peace in Northern Ireland, over the warmonger he was Sad

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 16:09

David Allen Green on Brexit

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
1. As am not against Brexit in principle, here fwiw are some (random) thoughts about the significance of the judgment today.
2. May is the wrong pilot for the Brexit plane. Decision not to have a Bill but to litigate instead is the latest unforced tactical error.
3. This was akin to putting Boris and Fox in their respective roles.
4. Entire "no running commentary" approach is not going to work. If Brexit is going to work then it needs an open and collaborative approach
5. The UK parliament (and the UK courts) should be central to Brexit, both operationally and symbolically.
6. Unless UK changes its approach then Brexit may not work.

May's approach so far should be seen as a failed, first attempt.

/Ends

Which isn't dissimilar to what I said at the Brexit Arms about an hour ago but in less words.

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