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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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Thread gallery
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missmoon · 03/11/2016 11:09

Sorry, posted the same link twice...

dudleymcdudley · 03/11/2016 11:10

It has to pass the Lords too but even if the Lords refuse/make amendments the Commons can then overrule them when it goes back to the Commons as far as my constitutional knowledge goes. (To prevent the unelected Lords overruling the elected Commons.)

Motheroffourdragons · 03/11/2016 11:12

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

missmoon · 03/11/2016 11:12

Bear, you can get the results by region (East, North West etc.), on the Electoral Commission page, just need to click on the tab for each region: www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums/past-elections-and-referendums/eu-referendum/electorate-and-count-information

Bearbehind · 03/11/2016 11:12

That's mismoon, forgive my laziness!

Bearbehind · 03/11/2016 11:13

Thanks not that's

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 11:16

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
This means that even if the Prime Minister now wanted to send the Article 50 notification, she cannot - at law - do so.

Even if the PM wrote "Article 50 Notification" on a cow and catapulted it over the channel, it would be unlawful without Act of Parliament.

Oh look we even have a reference to that possible 2nd Referendum here:

71. The European Union Act 2011 ("The EUA 2011") enacted certain restrictions on treaties and decisions relating to the EU. Section 2 provides that "A treaty which amends or replaces TEU or TFEU is not to be ratified unless", amongst other things, the treaty is approved by Act of Parliament and in certain cases a referendum is held. Section 3 provides that similar conditions would have to be fulfilled in relation to amendment of the TFEY under the simplified revision procedure under Article 48(6) of the TEU. Section 4 sets out cases where a referendum would be required, focusing on cases where there would be an extension of the competences or powers of EU institutions.

Someone better get a magnifying glass out and cast their eye closely over Section 4 and see exactly what it covers.

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NotDavidTennant · 03/11/2016 11:19

A quick Google tells me that the Lords can delay a bill for up to a year. Fun times ahead.

Kaija · 03/11/2016 11:19

Would think this is a crucial time to be writing to MPs. If anyone wants to share their letters for inspiration on here it might be useful.

(I've also got a Remain MP in a 53% Leave area)

LurkingHusband · 03/11/2016 11:20

Even a second referendum with a 60/40 split in favour of Remain would not heal the divide that cunt Cameron has caused.

The message to NI and Scotland from England (and surprisingly Wales) has been clear: look to your own.

(And yes, that is a historically significant phrase Grin)

LurkingHusband · 03/11/2016 11:25

Would think this is a crucial time to be writing to MPs

Not really. My MP told me to go fuck myself over Syria (on 6 pages of 100gsm HoC notepaper). As indeed the whole country was ignored.

Maybe a million-man-march through London ?

No, they're a waste of time too.

How about a kickstarter campaign to raise - say £650,000 and offer to pay MPs £1,000 to vote "Remain".

Or is such transparency too much (despite being the most honest approach of all Hmm) ?

Most high street greengrocers still have brown paper bags.

LurkingHusband · 03/11/2016 11:29

from the BBC

UKIP leader Nigel Farage said he feared a "betrayal" of the 51.9% of voters who backed leaving the EU in June's referendum and voiced concern at the prospect of a "half Brexit".

Again, it's suddenly "51.9%" - not the previously inviolable 52%.

Is the BBCs political correspondent Norman Smith, or Winston Smith ?

(p.s. "Half Brexit" seems about right - for the half that wanted it Smile)

HalleLouja · 03/11/2016 11:33

This guy makes some really clear points about parliamentary sovereignty here. Sorry if it has already been shared.

Kaija · 03/11/2016 11:40

I disagree, lurking husband. Mine has changed his tone considerably over the last few months. There is room for movement. And most MPs, I am sure, are likely to respond to what they perceive to be the will of their constituents, given that their job is on the line if they don't.

BrummieRemainer · 03/11/2016 11:59

Sadly my MP is a Leaver Sad but, here goes :

Dear Gisela Stuart,

just a quick note that following the judgement regarding the need for parliament to vote on article 50 in order to trigger "Brexit" I would urge you to look at the events, division and confusion, as well as criminality directed at innocent people, and reconsider whether there is still a democratic mandate for supporting Article 50.

I would suggest a comment from one of your parliamentary colleagues, David Davis, covers the suggestion that the vote of 23rd June was in any way sacrosanct or inviolable:

"A democracy that cannot change it's mind has ceased to be a democracy"

For the record, I believe the UKs future - for better or for worse - is inextricably linked with the other countries in Europe, and as a result, the UKs membership of the EU is an important statement of fact to an increasingly febrile world situation. I am happy to reveal that my vote in the referendum was to remain a member of the EU, and if asked to vote again, I would still vote to remain.

I would also happily concede that the EU is far from perfect; as indeed are ALL political institutions - the UK included. It is however, in the spirit of Winston Churchill "better than all the alternatives", and it would be better for the UK and EU if the UK addressed these issues as a member.

I will end by noting that you expressed concern AFTER the vote, about the status of EU nationals in the UK

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-campaigner-gisela-stuart-warns-brexit-has-left-eu-nationals-in-limbo_uk_57b2d8d1e4b08e6ad873bdba

At the risk of sounding immature, perhaps you should have thought about the consequences of your support for leaving the EU before you voted and urged others to vote ?

sent via www.writetothem.com

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 12:04

LCTR @LCTRgames
@Lawandpolicy does the indication in Para 94 mean that an appeal is not likely to be successful?

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Was my impression of paras 94-5. Almost like a half-time verdict. Government's case not good enough to win, regardless of claimants' case.

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
If the government loses on appeal to the Supreme Court, all this will have been worth it if May then appeals to European Court of Justice.

At this point I am starting to wonder if the government themselves will use the court! It would be bizarre and ridiculous. But then we are in the land of the bizarre and ridiculous.

The main crux of the decision is apparently in paragraphs 94 and 95 which read:
94. In our judgment, the clear and necessary implication fro these provisions taken separately and cumulatively is that Parliament intended EU rights to have effect in domestic law and that this effect should not be capable of being undone or overridden by action taken by the Crown in exercise of its prerogative powers. We therefore reject the Secretary of State's submission that Parliament did not intend to abrogate the Crown's prerogative powers and had not done so through the ECA 1972. Parliament also intended that British citizens should have the category (ii) rights and that, likewise, they should not be capable of being undone by the Crown by exercise of its prerogative powers. We arrive at this conclusion and reject the Secretary of State's submission by interpreting the ECA 1972 as a statue which introduces EU rights into domestic law and must be taken to cover the field. The ECA 1972 cannot be regarded as silent on the question of what happens to EU rights in domestic law if the Crown seeks to take action on that international plan to undo them. Either the Act reserves power to the Crown to do that, including by giving notice under Article 50, or it does not. In our view, it clearly does not.

95. We have reached this conclusion by examining and rejecting the submission advanced by the Secretary of State. We now turn as we indicated at paragraph 77, to the claimants' principal contention that as a matter of general constitutional principle derived from the sovereignty of Parliament and the case law beginning with 'The Case of Proclamations', to which we have referred at paragraphs 27 - 29 above, that the contention of the Secretary of State was misconceived. It was their submission that the Crown could not change domestic law and nullify rights under the law unless Parliament had conferred upon the Crown authority to do so either expressly or by necessary implication by an Act of Parliament. The ECA 1972, in their submission, contained no such authority.

Mark Elliott ‏@ProfMarkElliott
Worth noting today's judgment accepts argument first put in this post (which I argued against) by Nick Barber, @jeffaking & @TomRHickman
ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/06/27/nick-barber-tom-hickman-and-jeff-king-pulling-the-article-50-trigger-parliaments-indispensable-role/

CeciledeVolanges Fri 28-Oct-16 12:04:41
But Elliott plus Finnis = challenge basically dead

CeciledeVolanges, I think that the way the court has ruled, means your assertion here is not necessarily correct, because the claimants part of the case and loss of rights was actually secondary and Elliott's argument has not been taken. The government could pursue his point but given the reasoning for their argument here, I don't know that it will stand up at appeal. Is this fair comment?

para 102 also very important
102. In light of the conclusion we have reached by consideration of the terms of the ECA 1972 and basic constitutional principles, we do not find it necessary to address the supplementary submissions made by Miss Mountfield QC on the effect of the Act of Union 1707. Nor is it necessary or appropriate to consider various alternative arguments put forward by the claimants, interested parties and other interveners. They relied upon the 2002 Act, but that came well after the enactment of the material provisions in the ECA 1972 and cannot affect their meaning; and in so far as the 2002 Act was relied upon as further legislation abrogating prerogative powers if the submissions based on the ECA 1972 did not succeed, the question does not arise. The claimants also relied upon the EUA 2011 and the various devolution Acts, but the same points apply.

So, they contend that the ECA 1972 is the most important thing here and the one on which the decision rests, so they did not even explore the implications to other areas of contention! So lots of unanswered questions in effect?

It then goes onto NI, and they say that they felt that the NI challenge was too broad. (Fair point). It means that there is possibly room for the NI challenge to be tightened up.

This ruling also seems to outline the circumstances in which the prerog can be used for international treaties and its relationship to domestic law. Put into context with the Good Friday Agreement; the Crown has the power to make the international agreements (or to reverse them) and this has effect on an international level but if this affects domestic law then it has to go through parliament to be in effect ratified. Now I don't know if this is in effect the case as I'm not entirely sure how the Good Friday Agreement was implemented, but I would suggest that if it went through a ratification process then there might be a bit of an issue here that the challenge has created.

This is from my layman's eyes. I will be fascinated to see how legal eyes see the ruling and its implications.

I do think the ruling is pretty bomb proof though (and this is also the conclusion of legal minds) and the government will need to pull a rather large rabbit from the hat to over turn it.

Which begs the question: Why ARE the government pushing ahead with an appeal? Its either because they are so bloody minded and arrogant and dumb, because they have that rabbit or for some political reason (they want to make the courts / claimants / remain supporters look like an enemy and stir up divisions rather than calm the situation).

Its not obvious which it is, and which of the three it is, has serious implications...

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RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 12:14

Ed Chivers ‏@edwardchivers
@colemancr says all 11 Supreme Court justices may sit to hear govt appeal on A50 verdict - that's never happened before

Wow. If true.

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Mistigri · 03/11/2016 12:24

Brexit truly is the comedy gift that keeps on giving*:

Suzanne Evans: "How dare these activist judges attempt to overturn our will? It's a power grab & undermines democracy. Time we had the right to sack them."

  • as long as you are separated from these imbeciles by a body of water and your salary is paid in euros
CeciledeVolanges · 03/11/2016 12:25

Finnis' assertion was that what he argued had not been properly put to the court - it probably will be in the Supreme Court. I would just like to say that the court decided the same way as I argued in a post I have had published on a mainstream blog, as well.

CeciledeVolanges · 03/11/2016 12:25

But yes, I was wrong there :) and glad of it.

LurkingHusband · 03/11/2016 12:26

Ed Chivers ‏@edwardchivers
@colemancr says all 11 Supreme Court justices may sit to hear govt appeal on A50 verdict - that's never happened before

But a fitting response to the gravity of the case.

Are we seeing a subtle shift in the narrative ?

There are quite a few people pointing out that the Leavers talk of UK sovereignty is exactly reflected in this judgement. It rather spikes their guns to talk about "UK democracy" and then be unhappy - or ignorant - at how it works.

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 12:35

Tony Braisby ‏@TonyBraisby
"Yes, Parliament did win the civil war in the 1640, court finds"

David Davies MP ‏@DavidTCDavies
Unelected judges calling the shots. This is precisely why we voted out. Power to the people!

MP supports mob rule. The same MP who supports treating humans as cattle by checking their teeth (which doesn't work anyway).

Now reading suggestion that the ruling might increase the chances of an early election (this would, in all likelihood mean that a50 WOULD NOT be invoked by the end of March). Of course there is the Fixed Term Act to deal with first - or a deliberate vote of no confidence.

Alberto Nardelli ‏@AlbertoNardelli
A few thoughts:
1. Brexit still means Brexit. MPs are very very unlikely to vote against leaving.
2. But this will add to chaos and uncertainty. Some MPs will be embolden in seeking a role for parliament to influence terms of departure.
3. Meanwhile, Farage & co. along with the right wing press will call this a plot against the people. A conspiracy. More chaos.
4. Gov't doesn't come out of this well, weakened. Chances of an early election today are higher than yesterday
5. UK parliamentary sovereignty does not extend to Bundestag. MPs/LAB can say we want single market no free movement. It still won't happen

www.itv.com/news/2016-11-03/why-brexiteers-dont-really-want-british-parliament-and-courts-to-be-sovereign-or-at-least-not-today/
Peston on a50 ruling:

We'll also hear plenty from them about a corrupt stitch-up by the pro-European establishment to frustrate the revealed will of the British people in that we need to be out of Europe.

But the question for them is why on earth the Brexiteers want courts, MPs and Lords to have more independent power if those pillars of the British state are all so appallingly twisted and feeble.

You have to laugh, or maybe weep.

Ruth Davidson drops an unintended clanger:
Ciaran Jenkins ‏@C4Ciaran
Ruth Davidson accuses Nicola Sturgeon of risking Scotland's economy with "constitutional uncertainty". #FMQs
Sturgeon: That she can get up today of all days and talk about constitutional uncertainty frankly beggars belief. #FMQs
Sturgeon says Tories dragging Scotland out of EU against its will is the cause of constitutional uncertainty. #FMQs

www.ft.com/content/e72be378-a0ee-11e6-891e-abe238dee8e2?desktop=true
UK curry houses angry over visa betrayal
£4bn a year sector backed Leave but now feels let down over work permits

Britain’s curry industry says it has been betrayed by politicians over immigration, just days before Theresa May visits India at the weekend on her first significant trade mission.

The curry trade, which has sales of more than £4bn a year, supported Brexit after the Leave campaign promised that control over immigration from Europe would pave the way for more visas for south Asians.

Is the tide of public opinion starting to turn?

www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/11/george-osborne-brexit-government-likely-keep-controversial-state-aid-rules
George Osborne on State Aid

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dudleymcdudley · 03/11/2016 12:38

My MP is a pro-Corbyn Labour MP in a pro Remain part of England. He's also in the shadow cabinet (ATM..!)
I'd appreciate suggestions of what to say to/ask him.

MagikarpetRide · 03/11/2016 12:49

^David Davies MP ‏@DavidTCDavies
Unelected judges calling the shots. This is precisely why we voted out. Power to the people!^

We want democracy. Unless that democracy means obeying Constitutional law. In which case we want people to just do what we want! But that's not dictatorship mind you. Because, you know, will of the people and shit.

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 12:55

CeciledeVolanges Thu 03-Nov-16 12:25:27
But yes, I was wrong there and glad of it.

Phhhhheeewww!!!

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
An Article 50 detail: it was a unanimous decision against the Government by Lord Chief Justice, Master of the Rolls, Lord Justice Sales

Good stuff.

Mistigri Thu 03-Nov-16 12:24:18
Brexit truly is the comedy gift that keeps on giving

Oh god yes. Daniel Hannan is getting pounded on twitter for his reaction.

Ciaran Jenkins ‏@C4Ciaran
Sturgeon: SNP MPs will not vote for anything that undermines will of the Scottish people. #Article50
More significant: Sturgeon says Scottish govt could become "participant" in #Article50 case.
Sturgeon: We will actively consider whether Scottish govt become participants in #Article50 case.

SNP voting against a50.

Note my previous comment about how the High Court did not consider the Act of Union in its decision as its ruling on ECA 1972 was so compelling.

Chris Smith @ledredman
Clear that May made a mistake in not moving quickly on an A50 bill instead of this court case. Brexit news worsens and opposition growing.

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Agreed - this was a foreseeable problem for May, but she wanted to pretend it did not exist.

A problem she's still pursuing...

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