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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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Thread gallery
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RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 10:28

Tom Hay ‏@realTomHay
@JolyonMaugham @WomaninHavana @faisalislam @SamCoatesTimes This is what your Tweets looks like in financial form!

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night
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whatwouldrondo · 03/11/2016 10:29

The pound shot up the minute the news was released, the Guardian has a chart in its live coverage www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/nov/03/article-50-high-court-ruling-high-court-set-to-rule-on-whether-mps-should-vote-on-triggering-article-50-politics-live?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 10:30

www.judiciary.gov.uk/judgments/r-miller-v-secretary-of-state-for-exiting-the-european-union/

Full court ruling.

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tiggytape · 03/11/2016 10:32

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Callmecordelia · 03/11/2016 10:36

Liam Fox has said the Government will appeal.

MagikarpetRide · 03/11/2016 10:39

Whilst I agree it probably won't change article 50 happening I am pleased about this halt to May et al steamrollering. For people who apparently wanted democracy this is certainly a victory for it not that they're likely to see that Wink

MagikarpetRide · 03/11/2016 10:39

Or a delay to the steamrollering at least...

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 10:42

Luke Baker ‏@LukeReuters
Supreme Court's decision seems more hard-hitting against the government than many legal analysts expected @Lawandpolicy @JolyonMaugham

Reading through the full judgement now. Will post anything I think worth noting.

First thing I've seen is the following:
In these proceedings, this court is called upon to apply the constitutional law of the United Kingdom to determine whether the Crown has prerogative powers to give notice under Article 50 to trigger the process for withdrawal from the European Union. The law we were taken to was primarily the law of England and Wales, with some reference to the position in the other jurisdictions in the United Kingdom, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Although this court only has jurisdiction to apply law of England and Wales, we note that no-one in these proceedings has suggested that such parts of constitutional law in Scotland and Northern Ireland in relation to the interaction between statue and the Crown's prerogative powers as are relevant to determine the outcome in this case are any different from the law of England and Wales on that topic. Accordingly, for ease of reference and in view of the general constitutional importance of this case we will refer to UK constitutional law

I'm not sure what, if any, significance there is in this but I think its worthy of note as it could be important or something that is later looked at.

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Bearbehind · 03/11/2016 10:48

I know it can't be properly calculated but what are the stats by constituency as far as it can be gauged?

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 10:50

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
At first glance, this unanimous, detailed and reasoned judgment, by three very senior judges, looks appeal-proof.

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Wow. Para 94: government case was a fail before they even considered claimants' arguments

I've not got very far yet with it, but:

Point 29:

The legal position was summarised by the Privay Council in The Zamora [1916] 2 AC 77, at 90:

"The idea that the King in Council, or indeed any branch of the Executive, has power to prescribe or alter the law to be administered by Courts of law in this country is out of harmony with the principles of our Constitution. It is true that, under a number of modern statues, various branches of the Executive have power to make rules having the force of statutes, but all such rules derive their validity from the statute which creates the power, and not from the executive body by which they are made. No one would contend that the prerogative involves any power to prescribe or alter the law administered in Courts of Common Law or Equity..."

These priniciples are not only well settled but are also common ground. It is therefore not necessary to explain them further.

OUCH!

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dudleymcdudley · 03/11/2016 10:53

If the Government do appeal then that is very interesting as it would seem better for their purposes to go for a fast and furious vote in the Commons rather than drag it out.

Suggests they are cooling off on the whole idea of a quick and brutal exit?

ImpYCelyn · 03/11/2016 10:53

That's actually made me laugh. Just shows how deluded the gov were!

MagikarpetRide · 03/11/2016 10:57

Either the government are cooling their heels or are literally so out of touch they don't care about the ramifications of this being ended in the ECJ.

Or maybe they do want to keep stirring the hatred pot. Who knows. I'm not even sure they do Confused

tiggytape · 03/11/2016 10:57

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tiggytape · 03/11/2016 10:58

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Motheroffourdragons · 03/11/2016 10:59

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missmoon · 03/11/2016 11:00

Bear here are the referendum results by local area (local authority district, but can give you an idea of the results by constituency): www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums/past-elections-and-referendums/eu-referendum/electorate-and-count-information

Motheroffourdragons · 03/11/2016 11:01

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tiggytape · 03/11/2016 11:03

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Motheroffourdragons · 03/11/2016 11:04

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NotDavidTennant · 03/11/2016 11:04

"to go for a fast and furious vote in the Commons rather than drag it out."

But it has to pass the Lords as well, surely?

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 11:06
  1. The general rule that the conduct of international relations, including the making and unmaking of treaties, is a matter for the Crown in exercise of its prerogative powers arises in the context of the basic constitutional principle to which we have referred at paragraph 25 above, that the Crown cannot change domestic law by any exercise of its prerogative powers. The Crown's prerogative power to conduct international relations is regarded as wide and as being outside the purview of the courts precisely because the Crown cannot, in ordinary circumstances, alter domestic law by using such power to make or unmake a treaty. by making and unmaking treaties the Crown creates legal effects on the plane of international law, but in doing so it does not and cannot change domestic law. It cannot with the intervention of Parliament confer rights on individuals or deprive individuals of rights.^

Important going forward.

41. As a practical matter, by reason of the limits on its prerogative powers referred to at paragraph 25 above, the Crown could not have ratified the accession of the United Kingdom to the European Communities under the Community Treaties unless Parliament had enacted legislation. Legislation by Parliament was needed to give effect to EU law in the domestic law of the jurisdictions in the United Kingdom as was required by those Treaties and as was necessary to give effect in domestic law to the rights and obligations arising under EU law.

Btw I'm reading this thinking that together with what Ian Dunt said yesterday about that Act that requires a referendum on future EU commitments, that unless that is repealed, then we now are on course for a 2nd ref about something (probably a deal or no deal situation)

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LurkingHusband · 03/11/2016 11:06

I'd have thought non turnout meant happyish for the status quo to remain, rather than to want for change.

That's one possible interpretation.

The other - and it's always been the case previously - is to assume that people who can vote, but don't are effectively saying I am happy whatever the outcome - if they're not, they should have bloody well voted.

Bearbehind · 03/11/2016 11:06

Thanks mismoon, is there a summary of the regions anywhere?

missmoon · 03/11/2016 11:08

Estimates by constituency: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d8itmsB9dCfJwBIgpDFzCSMXAG1TvMR9qEJViOE9UXc/edit#gid=178471611

This is modelled figures (based on the characteristics of the population in each constituency, and knowledge of how people voted based on age, gender, education etc. from the British Election Study). The margins of error are large: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d8itmsB9dCfJwBIgpDFzCSMXAG1TvMR9qEJViOE9UXc/edit#gid=178471611