Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
RedToothBrush · 02/11/2016 15:49

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-immigration-uk-freedom-movement-myths-eu-referendum-theresa-may-amber-rudd-a7393136.html
Brexit: Six of the biggest myths we've heard about immigration since voting to leave the EU, debunked

Immigration is an area plaguedby emotive arguments, confusion and questionable assertions - more so in the era of Brexit than ever.The immigration expert, Jonathan Portes, attempts to clear some things up

Sorry. Expert alert.

Some good points in here though. Relevant if you DO want to decrease immigration.

OP posts:
TheBathroomSink · 02/11/2016 16:24

How did this happen? Why? I thought his political career was deader than the dodo?

All questions we're still asking about Liam Fox, too, don't forget.

Apparently, the Conservatives voted for him (despite the motion against him having been put forward by a Conservative) because they didn't want to get into a fight with Labour over their own members. So they bottled it, basically.

RedToothBrush · 02/11/2016 16:30

James O'Brien ‏@mrjamesob
Renault owns 45% of Nissan; the French Government own 19.73% of Renault. UK Parliament not allowed to know details of deal. #sovereignty

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/11/02/four-key-findings-in-the-new-brexit-report
Four key findings in the new Brexit report

Oh my. Ian Dunt has done a review into the Brexit report out today. You are gonna love this...

  1. Hard Brexiteers and Hard Europeans (non UK) have common interest in quick negotiations which if that happens, is likely to lead to a bad deal for us all.

Those EU figures who want Britain out fast and the whole thing done with, who are exasperated and angry at the UK being such a pain for so long, will be in total agreement with the hard Brexit lot, and could win the day in Brussels. This could be very dangerous. We have a weak negotiating hand and they have multiple vetoes. If this is all wrapped up quickly, it’s because we're getting a bad deal. And yet the hard Brexit brigade will embrace that as a fast route out and confirmation that Brussels really is a wrong 'un after all.

  1. The European Union Act 2011. Section 4(1)(i)
    That's interesting, because a new treaty could easily state that British authorities had to carry out instructions from EU institutions on financial services, say, as a condition for single market access. The granting of equivalency status which would be part of securing passporting for the City would almost certainly have some sort of provision like that concerning the European financial supervisory authorities. But if so, that triggers another referendum.

  2. Whitehall might get rebellious
    The civil service is facing the greatest challenge arguably in its history: an apocalypse of administrative, legal and trade tasks on a scale they could never have imagined would hit them. And there is plenty of reason to think that, underneath the loyal surface, they may not be ready to give their all for this brave new Brexit world.

  3. European Freedom of Information
    But here's the thing. The Europeans also have a Freedom of Information law. And they're also going to have a bunch of British documents. They can refuse disclosure on the basis that doing so might undermine protection of the financial, monetary or economic policy of the Union or any member state, but that's a rather weak argument. After all, as the report found, transparent sharing of information is less likely to disturb markets than "random leaks or hearsay".

If they refuse to disclose it, the case will go to the courts, in this case the general court. And British tabloids who have for years lionised the British parliament and attacked Brussels as this secretive Bonapartiste threat to British freedoms might find that actually they have been talked abject nonsense.

Or alternately, they might just blame immigrants somehow. Probably the latter.

That rather puts an interesting spin on a few things, and make it far from plain sailing ahead for the government in getting what it wants.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 02/11/2016 17:15

Why does your point 2) lead to another Referendum being triggered?

LurkingHusband · 02/11/2016 17:27

Why does your point 2) lead to another Referendum being triggered?

Wasn't one of David Cameron (spits) s pledges that any further transfer of powers to the EU would be subject to a referendum ?

Don't worry. He's probably forgotten too.

Peregrina · 02/11/2016 17:30

He's forgotten, or he has been forgotten? Both true, except when the history books are written, and he goes down as one of the most stupid Prime Ministers we have had.

TuckersBadLuck · 02/11/2016 17:31

The post mentions The European Union Act 2011, Section 4(1)(i) very clearly.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/12/section/4

'Cases where treaty or Article 48(6) decision attracts a referendum'

TheBathroomSink · 02/11/2016 17:37

German experts think it would be best for Germany to avoid Brexit: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/02/germany-should-intervene-to-prevent-brexit-or-minimise-damage-co/

RedToothBrush · 02/11/2016 18:19

dominiccummings.wordpress.com/2016/10/29/on-the-referendum-20-the-campaign-physics-and-data-science-vote-leaves-voter-intention-collection-system-vics-now-available-for-all/
On the referendum #20: the campaign, physics and data science – Vote Leave’s ‘Voter Intention Collection System’ (VICS) now available forall

If you want to make big improvements in communication, my advice is – hire physicists, not communications people from normal companies and never believe what advertising companies tell you about ‘data’ unless you can independently verify it. Physics, mathematics, and computer science are domains in which there are real experts, unlike macro-economic forecasting which satisfies neither of the necessary conditions – 1) enough structure in the information to enable good predictions, 2) conditions for good fast feedback and learning. Physicists and mathematicians regularly invade other fields but other fields do not invade theirs so we can see which fields are hardest for very talented people. It is no surprise that they can successfully invade politics and devise things that rout those who wrongly think they know what they are doing. Vote Leave paid very close attention to real experts.

The term 'real experts'. Interesting. Here's the thing about data. Its only as good as how you interpret it and how you can be influenced by other things. Maths and Physics is more 'pure' in the sense that it is not politicised, doesn't have its own ideological, and isn't biased in the same way as other fields.

Its why studies by experts on things like health or economics can be influenced or be flawed.

Interesting to see that the official Leave campaign went down this route.

Its also a very good reason why Human Rights and Data Protection is a pretty big deal...

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 02/11/2016 18:51

Denis MacShane ‏@DenisMacShane
A friend with good contacts sd that Brexit department has been doing scenarios and they all show Brexit an economic disaster.

I have no idea if its true or not. It just gives me an amusing mental image of David Davis going crazy and all the things he's been shouting at his juniors to 'fix the problem' somehow and make it look better. He tries to work out how the hell he is going to present his homework to Mrs May at the next Cabinet meeting whilst Cabinet swat, Hammond sits smugly in the corner smiling to himself as Davis has to deliver the bad news and make himself look bad.

Of course in doing so he'd be lashing out left right and centre at everyone for not believing and creating a heap of media leaks to try and discredit the cabinet golden boy. Rather like what's actually happening

In all seriousness though, if its true then the public and parliament should be told, as its their right to know. An economic disaster is not in the national interest and is not what people voted for. There are plenty of Leavers and Remainers who have stated - correctly - that no one voted to get poorer.

Of course there is a political reason not to. But its not for the benefit of anyone here.

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham
1. A50. Decision at 10am tomorrow. If the Government wins the Claimants will certainly appeal.
2. But if the Government loses, I have come round to the view that the Government may well not appeal.
3. This is not because, as the Government is likely to contend, it would rather just get on with passing the Act a loss will require.
4. An Act would need to pass both Houses - and my sense of the mood in the Lords is that, without serious amendments, it would not.
5. I think Govt is desperate to avoid a reference to the Court in Luxembourg - and there's a real risk the Supreme Court would order one.
6. A reference leading to a decision that an A50 notification was reversible would leave the question 'Brexit or no' an open sore for years.
7. Brexiteers will be desperate to avoid this. They know and fear the popular mood will change when the economic pigeons come home to roost.
8. The real question is whether the Court in Luxembourg might have an opportunity to decide that anyway. Watch this space...

There is the new battle line. If the claimants win, then someone needs to get the court in Luxembourg involved. And I'm sure someone will do their best to try and facilitate this. Indeed it looks like someone is already looking into it from that.

OP posts:
ManonLescaut · 02/11/2016 19:15

I think it's highly unlikely that the decision will go against the government.

I will happily eat my hat.

RedToothBrush · 02/11/2016 19:31

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/sir-vince-cable-british-economy-will-turn-nasty-next-year-says-man-who-predicted-2008-economic-crash-a7394316.html
British economy ‘will turn nasty next year’, says the man who predicted the economic crash
'People think no there's no problem with the economy... but they’re paying more for their food and their petroland that’s going to hit them next year'

This is quite a telling article from the Independent. One of the accusations I've seen repeated against economics and other experts was there failing to predict the 2008 economic crash. I've always said the claim was bollocks as I know lots of people saw in coming a mile off and all the warnings were made prior to the fact.

The man the article refers to, is in fact Vince Cable. Its a hugely political, rather than economic article. Remember Brown kept saying no one saw the crash coming and that's all you heard in the press to almost cover up the fact that there were warnings which went unheeded.

Yet here we have Vince Cable. Its rather like retrospective re-assessments and drawing attention to forgotten voices as history is written and re-examined due to subsequent events. Its not dissimilar to what has happened to Charles Kennedy with Iraq. Clegg is also being viewed rather differently post Brexit and post Cameron.

The Independent's editorial line is getting increasingly pro-Liberal Democrat. This isn't the first article I've seen that's been very favourable to them, but its one that's undeniably trying to make them look good and give them a political makeover. I don't think the paper has come out directly behind them yet, but it certainly looks like its strongly leaning that way, rather than towards Labour.

The Liberal Democrats have had a problem with getting favourable press and column inches, but it seems they are being set up here as the party of safe reliable hands for the economy. Which is in tune with their current strategy of labelling themselves as the party of business as the Tories go crazy over Brexit.

The Guardian whilst left leaning isn't being quite so favourable to the Lib Dems though certainly is sympathetic.

sluggerotoole.com/2016/11/02/micheal-martin-throws-a-few-questions-at-the-all-island-dialogue-on-brexit-to-consider/
Micheál Martin, Irish Minster for Foreign Affairs is quoted here as saying:
The European Union itself has an obligation to stand by the pro-EU majority on this island. It cannot insist on business as usual in how it develops programmes, allows state supports and implements broad EU policies. The principle of helping states meet unique challenges was embedded within the Union when the single market and monetary union treaties were agreed. It must continue.

And
www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/irish-official-to-join-european-commission-brexit-taskforce-1.2851981
Irish official to join European Commission Brexit taskforce

Tadhg O’Briain appointed to team at forefront of EU negotiations with Britain

OP posts:
Peregrina · 02/11/2016 19:36

4. An Act would need to pass both Houses - and my sense of the mood in the Lords is that, without serious amendments, it would not.

I hope they have more backbone than the Commons, who with one or two honourable exceptions appear to have got into bed with UKIP.

BTW - did Paddy Ashdown ever eat his hat?

RedToothBrush · 02/11/2016 19:45

metro.co.uk/2015/05/09/paddy-ashdown-literally-eats-hat-because-nothing-makes-sense-anymore-5189076/
Yes

www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/02/worker-shortages-for-uk-food-industry-at-12-year-low?CMP=twt_gu
Worker shortages for UK food industry reach worst level since 2004
Fall in sterling’s value and fears of anti-migrant sentiment has put EU nationals, who make up 90% of jobs in sector, off applying for vacancies

The UK’s food industry is facing the worst labour shortage for at least 12 years as farmers, manufacturers and processors struggle to find enough workers to prepare for the Christmas rush.

The warning comes amid fears of a shortage of truck and van drivers to deliver goods to shops and homes.

We've not left yet. We have no immigration controls yet for unskilled workers which are so badly wanted. There are plenty of jobs for Brits but they can't fill them with Brits.

OP posts:
SwedishEdith · 02/11/2016 19:50

Presume we've all seen that Wetherspoons dickhead trying to get more publicity for his godawful pubs? The comments below the Guardian article cheered me up a lot today.

mathanxiety · 02/11/2016 20:30

Twofingerstogideon:

"It's appalling, but I'm not surprised, as it seems typical of many Brexit voters. We've seen it over and over again on these threads: people who supported Brexit, but who have no answers, no sensible contribution to make to dialogue and no willingness to acknowledge the potential cock-up. Instead, they strop off, complaining about 'remoaners'."

You have very accurately described the approach of the Democratic Unionist Party to all issues when there is the slightest whiff of separation from Britain or the slightest suggestion that working with other parties in NI is necessary for the greater good. The concept of the greater good is one that the DUP does not understand at all, and has never signed up for.

This has been the approach of the Democratic Unionist Party (formerly the Protestant Unionist Party*) since it was founded in 1971 in response to the disenfranchised Catholic community's campaign for civil rights. The DUP represents the voice of radical protestant fundamentalism, irrationality and unreasonableness.

(*'The PUP campaigned for the retention of the Union, preferential treatment for Protestants in employment, and for total freedom for Orange parades' - Wiki)

Here is the entire Wikipedia article on the forerunner of the Protestant Unionist Party, which was called 'Ulster Protestant Action':

'Ulster Protestant Action (UPA) was an Ulster loyalist and Protestant fundamentalist vigilante group in Northern Ireland.

The group was founded at a special meeting at the Ulster Unionist Party's (UUP) offices in Glengall Street, Belfast, in 1956. Among the attendees were many loyalists who were to become major figures in the 1960s and 1970, such as Ian Paisley and Desmond Boal. The independent unionist MP Norman Porter also attended, but took no further part in the group.[1] The meeting's declared purpose was to organise the defence of Ulster Protestant areas against anticipated Irish Republican Army (IRA) activity, based on the old Ulster Protestant Association immediately after the partition of Ireland in 1920, who organised assassination missions into Catholic areas of Belfast.[2] The new body decided to call itself "Ulster Protestant Action", and the first year of its existence was taken up with the discussion of vigilante patrols, street barricades, and drawing up lists of IRA suspects in both Belfast and in rural areas.[3]

The initial executive of the UPA consisted of John McQuade, Billy Spence, Charles McCullough, Richard Fenton, Frank Millar, Sammy Verner, Herbert Ditty, Bob Newman and Noel Doherty, with Paisley as an ex officio member.[4]

Even though no IRA threat materialised in Belfast, and despite it becoming clear that the IRA's activities during the Border Campaign were to be limited to the border areas, Ulster Protestant Action remained in being. Factory and workplace branches were formed under the UPA, including one by Paisley in Belfast's Ravenhill area under his direct control. The concern of the UPA increasingly came to focus on the defence of "Bible Protestantism" and Protestant interests where jobs and housing were concerned. [5]

Although initially opposed to professional politicians, specifically banning them from membership of the group, the UPA stood the former Belfast City Councillor and superintendent of an independent gospel mission, Albert Duff, against Brian Maginess in Iveagh at the Northern Ireland general election, 1958.[6] Maginess was perceived as being sympathetic to Catholics, having banned an Orange Order parade in 1952,[7] and Duff was able to take 41.5% of the vote, although he failed to win the seat. Duff was more successful in May 1958, when he regained a seat on Belfast City Council, with Charles McCullough also taking a seat for the UPA, while, in 1960, Boal won the Belfast Shankill constituency at Stormont as an official UUP candidate.[6]

As Paisley came to dominate Ulster Protestant Action, he received his first convictions for public order offences. In June 1959, a major riot occurred on the Shankill Road in Belfast following a rally he had spoken at.[5] His moves to form a Protestant unionist political party caused tensions in the group, and Paisley's supporters formed their own "Premier" branch of the UPA, reinforcing their control of the group.[6]

In the 1960s, Paisley and the UPA campaigned against Prime Minister of Northern Ireland Terence O'Neill's rapprochement with the Republic of Ireland and his meetings with Taoiseach of the Republic, Seán Lemass, a veteran of the Easter Rising of 1916 and the anti-Treaty IRA. They opposed efforts by O'Neill to deliver civil rights to the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland, especially the proposed abolition of gerrymandering of local electoral areas for the election of urban and county councils. In 1964 his demand that the Royal Ulster Constabulary remove an Irish Tricolour from Sinn Féin's Belfast offices led to two days of rioting after this was followed through. In the aftermath of these protests, Duff and James McCarroll were elected to Belfast City Council for the UPA.[8] In 1966, the group reformed as the Protestant Unionist Party.'

Over the decades this and other right wing and completely unreasonable voices in Ulster (aka NI) were supported and emboldened by the support of successive British governments. There has been an unbroken history of British governments support for people who have no answers, no sensible contribution to make to dialogue and no willingness to acknowledge the potential cock-up. Instead, they strop off (to quote Twofingers).

I very much fear that Theresa May has taken a similar approach.

mathanxiety · 02/11/2016 21:08

Homer: "I reluctantly accept your proposal."
Bill Gates: "Well everyone always does. Buy him out, boys!"
....
"I didn't get rich by writing a lot of cheques.."

So good luck to TM dealing with Microsoft.

Nightofthetentacle · 02/11/2016 21:25

Mildly nervous about the A50 result - fascinated to see if Jolyon Maugham is correct.

God, that Cummings talks a lot of shite in the rest of that piece, doesn't he? Summary "physicists and only physicists for all!".

I know a bit about data science - employing people blindly on the basis of what degree they studied is like something a junior manager at a consultancy would propose, glowing with pride, having successfully completed a 2 week project. "every project should always..."

Having had a brief rummage in the "VICS" github, the only mild interest I could find is the canvassing instructions, just in case we needed a reminder where the ideas: "350m for the NHS", "make our own laws" and "can't control our borders, city the size of plymouth" came from.

github.com/celestial-winter/vics/blob/master/web-server/src/main/resources/pdf/canvass_cover.pdf

Also, when you see it like this
assertThat(voter.issues().sovereignty(), is(true));

It's less scary, innit? not

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night
HesterThrale · 02/11/2016 22:25

I'm in a Facebook group called The 48% on which some great stuff is posted. It is closed but you can join. Today the Chair of the group, Peter French, had a meeting with Dominic Grieve MP (strong pro-EU Tory) and he posted a summary of what was said. I'll copy it here (he doesn't mind) as it's very interesting. Slightly depressing, but offers a strategy for all the groups fighting Brexit:

^"My meeting with Dominic Grieve MP.
November 1st 2016.
Peter French
Hello everyone. My name is Peter French. I am the Chair of the 48%+. I recently wrote to Dominic Grieve to ask for a meeting. He very kindly replied and so what follows is a précis of my meeting with him yesterday, Tuesday, 1st of November. He was the former Attorney General, voted remain and has spoken out quite vociferously against Brexit. He believes this is catastrophic for the country and the country is a mess because of it.
What follows is his frank and honest appraisal of where we are and the road that he thinks lies ahead. This was a relatively short meeting as he was extremely busy but he covered all the points he felt were relevant.
Dominic started by asking about the group I’m with and the movement, He wasn’t surprised to learn there were so many groups and upwards of half a million people.
So firstly Dominic explained that there is no quick fix to this mess. This cannot be stopped or reversed or fixed before Article 50 is invoked, in March. He then went on to explain that Article 50 ‘will be’ invoked, there was no stopping that now because all the MP’s will not vote against the majority decision of the referendum, no matter how small the margin was for leaving. He explained that most MP’s were for remain but they are duty bound to vote for Article 50 to be invoked because that was the result of the referendum. He explained, the government went to the country to decide on this and the result came back to leave, however small that was, but the government could not then say to the country, well we don’t agree with you so we’re going to disregard your vote and stay. He said it would make a mockery of government and democracy. He said he didn’t know of any MP (excluding one or two) who wouldn’t vote to have Article 50 invoked for that reason.
When I brought up the fact that it was only advisory and also the lies that were told, Dominic was quick to explain that yes it was advisory but it still had to be respected as a decision made by the country. As for the campaign itself, he said the Remain side ran a terrible campaign and agreed that the Leave side told terrible lies (“huge porkies” as he put it) but we are where we are.
This brought us on to the current court cases
.
He wasn’t surprised by the outcome of the hearing in Belfast. (More on Northern Ireland later). In his opinion the London case may be more positive and the government may lose, but it will go to the Supreme Court in December whatever the outcome. However even if they lose that and MP’s do get to vote on invoking Article 50, we are back at square one because the MP’s will all collectively vote to invoke it.
Further, should the Government lose the court case in London, the most it would do, would be to push invoking Article 50 to the Summer, probably June. But he stresses it would not stop Article 50 being invoked. That will still happen.
He also explained that there is nothing in the legislature to reverse it once it has been invoked.
Before I move onto what he recommends for us, I will just cover the other aspects he highlighted.
He explained that it’s chaos in Parliament right now because nobody was prepared for this. There was no plan. There are huge cracks in both the Conservative and Labour parties and no leadership for a plan in the opposition either. And yet despite all these cracks and differences they will all still vote to invoke article 50.
Brexit ! Hard Brexit/Soft Brexit ? He did say that as we are hearing there is a lot of Hard Brexit talk coming from the Government but the reality is that their bark is louder than their bite. They are making a fuss about it because there are not many of them (hard brexiteers), they are feeling vulnerable and mostly, everyone knows and agrees that we will come out with a soft Brexit deal.
Even though he himself was deeply concerned (and publicly spoke out about it), just two weeks ago when it was announced by the British Bankers Association that large banks are getting ready to leave in the New year, he says it is more likely that like other businesses they may open offices in other cities but they will keep their base here because nobody knows what’s going to happen.
He said it is widely agreed that the Eurozone is in a mess now as well. That there are huge cracks there as well and he believes that the Eurozone of 10-15 years time will be a very different one to the one that exists now. When I suggest that we should have been in there to be a part of that change he could not have agreed more. He said that many European countries, especially the Scandinavian countries, Holland and to a lesser extent Poland, also have some of the same concerns as the UK about the Eurozone. He felt as many did that the deal David Cameron brokered was an exceptionally good deal indeed for the UK but it was rejected by the far right as not being enough.
I also asked about Scotland and Northern Ireland. He explained that even though devolved they had no veto over invoking Article 50 or on the process. He did grant that the Good Friday Agreement would pose particular problems for Northern Ireland but not enough to hinder the process.
He emphasised that what lies ahead is mind boggling. There are 40 years of legislation to unravel, and nobody was prepared for this.
So where does that put us.
Dominic gets emails and letters all the time. Some from Remainers, some from Leavers (you can imagine the sentiments), but he is also getting some letters from people who feel they made a mistake.
And this is where he believes the answer lies.
A shift in public opinion.
He reiterated that this is going to be a long journey, I likened it to a marathon as opposed to a sprint and he said that described it exactly. He explained that what will change this course of action is if enough people in the country significantly change their mind to the extent that the government cannot ignore it and therefore have to have another referendum, but he says that this would have to be more significant than a reverse 52-48%.
It would have to be more 60-40 to force another referendum.
There was one other option that he proposed which might also reverse Brexit and that would be if at a particular time, (and this would be further down the road and long after Article 50 had been invoked), ALL 27 countries agreed they wanted the UK to stay within the EU. There is no provision for this in the legislature once Article 50 has been invoked but it is possible in his opinion that such a scenario could come to pass.
Dominic did say that there are going to be very difficult times ahead and it is very likely the mood of the people will change in time and therein lies our hope. I MUST stress that I did come out of the meeting with the same hope and optimism that he had too.
He emphasised that WE MUST all keep going and NOT give up and we should continue to build and build the movement, increasing our numbers. And keep writing to our own MP’s, that is very important.
I will be keeping in contact with Dominic and seeing him again at some stage. I will certainly keep you all updated when I do.
PS. As for the Lords position I will have an announcement on that soon.
We must keep going.
My very best wishes to everyone,
Peter.
The 48%"^

SwedishEdith · 02/11/2016 22:36

Michael Crick is tweeting from the Spectator awards.

Michael Crick ‏@MichaelLCrick 2m2 minutes ago
Boris Johnson: "like those grim days after June 23". Hang on, his side won.
0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes

SwedishEdith · 02/11/2016 22:37

Robert Peston is there as well

Robert Peston ‏@Peston 6m6 minutes ago
.@Nigel_Farage says not going to celebrity jungle but to work for Trump in Whitehouse #specawards
0 replies 3 retweets 3 likes

SwedishEdith · 02/11/2016 22:44

James Kirkup ‏@jameskirkup 7m7 minutes ago
Boris Johnson: "Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a titanic success of it."
Yes, titanic.
(Speech to the @spectator dinner)

SwedishEdith · 02/11/2016 22:51

Theresa May is dressed as a builder

Robert Peston ‏@Peston 5m5 minutes ago
.@theresa_may to @BorisJohnson: "The dog was put down when it was no longer needed" @#specawards

Peregrina · 02/11/2016 22:56

Titanic success Grin Oh dear, why doesn't that man learn to keep his mouth shut? I wonder if Headmistress May will tell him off, and give him 100 lines to write out the correct version? Except he's probably right this time, so he might be able to bluff his way out!

Meanwhile, Mr Wetherspoon is having a strop:
"Wetherspoon normally agrees on trade deals with suppliers for three to 10 years. If we, and companies like ours, are unable to agree on tariff-free transactions, it will inevitably result in a loss of business for European companies which have done nothing to deserve this outcome.

Remind me how he voted? What bit of not being able to pic n' mix doesn't he understand? Although I have to agree, European companies are likely to lose out. But still they will still have 26 other countries to trade with. Will his customers still patronise his establishments if they can't get their favourite tipple there?

HesterThrale · 02/11/2016 22:58

The Tories are wrecking the country and they're making a big joke about it at these Awards. I'm disgusted.

Swipe left for the next trending thread