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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

OP posts:
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Peregrina · 02/11/2016 23:01

I'm disgusted with virtually all MPs but I had my knuckles rapped lightly this evening for saying who I blamed. Doesn't do any good, we have to find a way to rescue ourselves from this disaster! Oh no, it's not a disaster, sorry, I am talking the country down. Wonderful opportunities. To be fair, some people will find opportunities....

GloriaGaynor · 02/11/2016 23:20

He's not worried about European companies losing business is he...

TheBathroomSink · 02/11/2016 23:20

Can we find a way to make sure farage is on that flight no matter what the result is?

TheBathroomSink · 02/11/2016 23:24

Will his customers still patronise his establishments if they can't get their favourite tipple there?

Probably. They are, after all, the pub equivalent of a pound shop. They sell whatever they can get a good deal on, so that they can have the rolling promotions.

SwedishEdith · 02/11/2016 23:34

I doubt 'spoon's customers go there for the quality of the goods. I remember a food programme where they refused to disclose the contents of their not very nice chilli con carne.

Wetherspoon's are a horrible company - huge and predatory, pricing out smaller local pubs. But, as always, the owners/CEOs are always ok; it's their staff they crap on.

Peregrina · 02/11/2016 23:58

So if Wetherspoons was employing mostly E Europeans on zero hours contracts, and they are now going home, because they have been made to feel unwelcome and the pound has fallen, so it's no longer worthwhile staying here anyway for them, then he won't have any staff to worry about.

Just his falling profits. Why am I not as upset as I should be? Schadenfreude comes to mind.

Mistigri · 03/11/2016 04:48

Doesn't do any good, we have to find a way to rescue ourselves from this disaster!

Not difficult, if all the bloody stupid "make the best of a bad deal" crowd took possession of their marbles and started opposing brexit.

If a hard brexit happens, it will be the responsibility of those who were not true believers, who understood the risks, but who allowed it to happen anyway.

On a separate note, this is quite extraordinary: app.ft.com/cms/s/4d1430b0-a161-11e6-86d5-4e36b35c3550.html?ftcamp=published_links%2Frss%2Fhome_uk%2Ffeed%2F%2Fproduct

Mistigri · 03/11/2016 04:53

In case you get a paywall (I find the FT paywall rather random!), it's a report of the spectator awards, at which May joked about having Boris out down Shock

Mistigri · 03/11/2016 04:54

*put down

EmilyAlice · 03/11/2016 07:48

And Boris apparently said that Brexit is going to be a "Titanic" success. I couldn't have put it better myself. Grin

twofingerstoGideon · 03/11/2016 07:53

Author of Article 50 says it can be stopped

Peregrina · 03/11/2016 07:53

Not difficult, if all the bloody stupid "make the best of a bad deal" crowd took possession of their marbles and started opposing brexit.

I so agree, and am just drafting another letter to my MP to say much the same. I forget who said that no one voted to be worse off; arguably most people were voting to be better off - e.g. more money for the NHS. As for anti-immigrant fervour - excepting the racists who would kick out everyone who wasn't white - even that is, I believe an expression of being left behind, since in most cases, immigration is not the issue in those communities.

Even 'taking back control' of our laws - no-one can name one that they can pin onto Europe, and many, although dismissed as Red Tape, have sound reasons behind them e.g. Health and Safety rules.

So yes, let's see them 'grow a pair' and say, Brexit is cancelled, but we admit that there are problems which have been highlighted which need addressing.

Bearbehind · 03/11/2016 07:57

I'm disgusted with virtually all MPs but I had my knuckles rapped lightly this evening for saying who I blamed

Blush sorry peregrina.

doesnt do any good, we have to find a way to rescue ourselves from this disaster

completely agree, just wish there was an obvious way of doing so.

BoJo is not a stupid man- that Titanic comment wasn't an error Hmm

Peregrina · 03/11/2016 08:04

Apology accepted Bear. I do think we have to move forward. Ideally stop Brexit because it's turning into economic and social suicide (with the racism that has been exposed).

At the same time, admit that the EU is a flawed institution, and not what we joined in 1973, but throw our weight behind trying to reform it to the best of our ability, instead of constantly whining for opt-outs.

BoJo isn't stupid, so was this 'titanic' comment, his clownish way of saying - er, I backed the wrong horse? Honestly, I don't know. I suspect he realises that his current role is not helping his BoJo for PM cause.

Is Osborne positioning himself for a leadership bid?

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 03/11/2016 08:08

Agree with others re johnsons titanic comment

jaws5 · 03/11/2016 08:10

I agree that Boris had to be ironic. But, what does that mean as to his intentions and relationship with TM?
This is what a senior Labour source says about Labour's "dithering":
^Figures in both Labour's shadow Brexit team and the leader's office, have told Politics.co.uk that they are unlikely to back full continued membership of the single market.

"Full membership of the single market would be seen as not respecting the result of the referendum," one senior source said.

Even a Norway-style single market deal is unlikely to be pushed for by Labour.

"The Norway option isn't really going to be on the table," they insisted.

"We're looking at a new bespoke deal."^
So, they're going to appease anti-immigration voters. Corbyn has spoken out for refugees, but said not much on FoM. Now this is the party line.

time4chocolate · 03/11/2016 08:21

I do think we need to move forward. Ideally stop Brexit because it's turning into economic and social suicide (with the racism that has been exposed).

I beg to differ with you there peregrina, I think if we stop this it will be social suicide (and expose more racism). Not a thought I relish that's for sure.

Peregrina · 03/11/2016 08:31

I think if we stop this it will be social suicide (and expose more racism).

I am about to go out for the day, so a brief reply. I don't think it will necessarily. I think significant numbers of people really neither knew nor cared about the EU, but the Referendum was a good way of saying that they felt ignored. If someone could begin to address those needs, then I think they will go back to neither knowing or caring. Racism which was bubbling under the surface has been exposed, but I tend to think that quite a lot of this is people going along with the crowd, and if it were made clear that it's not acceptable, people would stop.

Bearbehind · 03/11/2016 08:44

I think if we stop this it will be social suicide

If Brexit was called off today I agree but, if enough people realise how detrimental this is looking likely to be, particularly if they become personally disadvantaged by it, it could be stopped, or at the very least watered right down.

whatwouldrondo · 03/11/2016 08:46

Weatherspoons profits have been on the slide for well over a year, all to do with a failing business model and nothing to do with Brexit. They couldn't even make enough money out of last Christmas. Most under 25s know them as a shit employer and so those most likely to take up their casual low paid work go elsewhere to work and drunk, and their brand has suffered too. The Brexit stance just exacerbates an existing issue with the business model and brand.

whatwouldrondo · 03/11/2016 08:47

I meant drink but drunk is probably equally accurate.....

Bearbehind · 03/11/2016 08:54

It does beg the question the whatwould, if Wetherspoons business model was failing anyway what was Tim Martins logic in voting out and thus limiting his options?

dudleymcdudley · 03/11/2016 09:42

It does beg the question the whatwould, if Wetherspoons business model was failing anyway what was Tim Martins logic in voting out and thus limiting his options?

I fail to be persuaded against the view that actually the vast swathe of Out votes, and probably his, were based on deeply ingrained xenophobia and racism.

I was born in 1974 of a middle class conservative and illiberal family. I grew up amid a culture of casual and deeply ingrained racism and xenophobia. The culture of the time as far as I can see mostly reflected this.

The older generations of this country in general view the UK through the deeply biased lens of Empire and as victors of 2 world wars (which we pretty much won single-handedly thus saving the rest of Europe who should be grateful.)

What else explains the tone and popularity of the Mail and Express etc and the way our politicians over decades have mostly refused to engage with Europe in any way other than reluctantly or truculently.

I don't see this changing in anything other than decades and will probably require a massive shock and fall from grace in order to deliver some humility.

LurkingHusband · 03/11/2016 09:44

It does beg the question the whatwould, if Wetherspoons business model was failing anyway what was Tim Martins logic in voting out and thus limiting his options?

Maybe he's none too bright ?

For some reason - it may be an educational thing - it seems as a society we equate success with wisdom. Which I'm not sure is a valid conclusion. (Or maybe watching Dave Gorman deconstructing Lord Sugars business turkeys of the "Emailer", "Emailer plus" and "Emailer 3" which saw Amstrad shares tumble by 95% in 5 years has skewed my view ?)

Look at the US where Trumps wealth is used as a proxy for his intelligence by many "he's rich, he must know what he's talking about".