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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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RedToothBrush · 02/11/2016 12:00

openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/wto-rules-mean-uk-eu-divorce-and-new-trade-arrangement-cannot-be-completely-separate/
WTO rules mean UK-EU divorce and new trade arrangement are not fully separable

This is actually reassuring. Well at least in part.

^However, under WTO rules, any such interim deal would have to come with a timetable and the outline of the final destination envisaged.
Article XXIV(5) of the General Agreement on Trade and Tariffs (GATT), which covers trade in goods, establishes that,^

The provisions of this Agreement shall not prevent, as between the territories of contracting parties, the formation of a customs union or of a free-trade area or the adoption of an interim agreement necessary for the formation of a customs union or of a free-trade area […] Any interim agreement […] shall include a plan and schedule for the formation of such a customs union or of such a free-trade area within a reasonable length of time.

In other words, if the UK and the EU-27 wanted to have a number of ‘bridging measures’ for trade in place, in order for the latter to be WTO-compliant the two sides would need to make it clear that these measures are the antechamber of a broader Free Trade Agreement (FTA) between them and, crucially, lay out a roadmap for when they plan to have this FTA wrapped up. Absent such a roadmap, any liberalising measure would have to be extended to all WTO members by virtue of the Most Favoured Nation (MFN) clause.

This does however, assume, that the UK doesn't do something stupid like throwing toys out the pram and rejecting what the EU says completely.

And as Samuel Lowe points out:
Samuel Lowe ‏@SamuelMarcLowe
Agree that any transitional agreement would require a set timetable, however - as is the way with all trade negs - no way we'd stick to it.

Its very dependent on the UK being able to meet deadlines (such as bringing in new computer systems)

The EU could meet their obligations, we just might not have the capacity to.

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RedToothBrush · 02/11/2016 12:08

politicalscrapbook.net/2016/11/watch-ukip-leader-candidate-defends-comparison-of-gay-rights-campaigners-to-nazis/
WATCH: UKIP leader candidate defends comparison of gay rights campaigners to Nazis

The 'Gaystapo' says the donkey raped my horse guy.

You'd almost think he had a bit of a complex going on...

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RedToothBrush · 02/11/2016 12:09

sorry its his campaign manager, but the donkey rape guy.

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RedToothBrush · 02/11/2016 12:15

a50 ruling. Court 4. 10am.
Tomorrow.

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LurkingHusband · 02/11/2016 12:20

Its very dependent on the UK being able to meet deadlines (such as bringing in new computer systems)

See previous point. The UKs appalling track record for non-trivial IT projects is legendary. We're hardly up to date now !

Also the ability of commercial organisations to implement any changes to their systems (which will be enormous, wide-reaching, increasing subtle, and long lasting) is in doubt (see previous).

Time to refresh my COBOL knowledge.

Peregrina · 02/11/2016 12:24

Of course once the UK is out of the EU, we will get our own MS deal - at whatever figure MS want.
Yup.

And guess where the greatest pool of resource for that is ? Yup. Outside the EU in India, Pakistan, and the far East.

Yup again. But I doubt if anyone in May's cabinet knows the first thing about it.

LurkingHusband · 02/11/2016 12:31

I'm sort of thinking on the run here, but the potential need for COBOL expertise actually suggests having to draw from an in-UK pool of talent. Unfortunately not even the importance of Brexit can prevent the grim reaper taking back control, and shrinking that pool - most of which will have been retired for 10,15 years already - even further.

Just the work needed to rewrite how VAT will work in future (bearing in mind we have no idea for 2 years at least) will dwarf the millennium bug. Of course, if we chose the "let's leave VAT exactly as it is" option (politically impossible, but commercially sensible) we're starting to drift into the "what was the point ?" debate.

I notice that Theresa May is keen to sign up to the EU crime initiatives, and serve up the UKs police databases on a plate. Surprised UKIP haven't complained yet.

RedToothBrush · 02/11/2016 12:32

PM: We need to live within our means and cut benefits and make it about the working poor
Public: Yes!!!!

So, erm. Just what the fuck?!
www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-nissan-subsidies-analysis-idUSKBN12X0KX
Britain's Brexit subsidies for carmakers could top wage bills

Compensating carmakers in Britain for any post-Brexit tariffs on exports to Europe could see the government hand the companies more money than they need to pay the salaries of all their British workers, a Reuters analysis of corporate filings shows.

290 million in subsidies vs 288 million in wages

Insane.

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RedToothBrush · 02/11/2016 12:34

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
Crazed Tory MP: "My question to the prime minister is this: What is going on in this country because I no longer understand the rules?"

I'm watching PMQs. A Tory MP really did just ask this.

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LurkingHusband · 02/11/2016 12:36

Let's hope those Nissans sell in Europe. They sure as hell won't be affordable here.

Let's hope we aren't faced with the truculence of the EU deciding they don't really like Nissans - at any price.

RedToothBrush · 02/11/2016 12:38

www.independent.co.uk/voices/pound-falls-brexit-mark-carney-bank-of-england-leaving-inequality-house-prices-left-behind-a7393236.html
Don't blame Brexit for the plunging pound and rising inequality – it's the fault of Mark Carney

Mark Carney apparently responsible for political decisions. He runs HMRC and enforces loop holes in taxation. He is responsible for where cuts have been made. He is responsible for outsourcing to private sector. He is responsible for employment law and practice.

Fuck me.

Mark Carney is indeed 'God'.

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Peregrina · 02/11/2016 12:38

What is going on in this country because I no longer understand the rules?"

That sounds like a sensible question to me! What was TM's answer? "Search me, I haven't got a clue either." Or was it, "Brexit means Brexit, and I intend to make a success of it."

TheBathroomSink · 02/11/2016 12:46

Surprised UKIP haven't complained yet.

They're a bit busy arguing about gay donkeys and the death penalty and whether Suzanne Evans is a Tory plant (that was an actual thing at the hustings) and having no money and all being batshit crazy. Plus Banks was on r4 this morning apparently floating the idea that NF will come back and save us all from ourselves (presumably on the back of his glorious career advising Trump).

You can't expect them to have time to deal with actual stuff as well!!

CeciledeVolanges · 02/11/2016 13:16

Probably "God knows, but we will get the best deal for Britain!"

RedToothBrush · 02/11/2016 13:17

I didn't catch May's reply tbh.

I was probably someone about it being clear what was going on.

Banks has got a book out. Nuff said.

Lisa Nandy ‏@lisanandy
Another lawyer on the #csainquiry resigned citing concerns over progress and direction. What was the Home Sec doing?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-suzanne-evans-radical-islam-extremism-next-big-battle-leadership-candidate-a7393191.html
Tackling radical Islam 'next big battle for Ukip', leadership candidate says
Suzanne Evans made the declaration at a campaign hustings in London,where her viewwas echoed by the frontrunner to succeed Nigel Farage, Paul Nuttall

I'm not even going to go there and comment on that story. Again nuff said.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/02/ukip-could-be-about-to-die-warns-its-biggest-donor-arron-banks/
'Ukip could be about to die', warns its biggest donor Arron Banks

The tycoon also said his close ally Nigel Farage could return again as leader to stabilise the party.

and

Mr Banks, who says he has suspended donations to the party, said he thought leadership contest front-runner Paul Nuttall lacked the "steel" to sort out the mess in Ukip.

He has threatened to stop funding the party unless it "cleanses itself" of some of its best-known figures.

Translation: All the candidates are utter arse. I confirm that UKIP are not standing a candidate in Richmond is down to the fact that I refuse to stump up cash for it. I'm still trying to think of a way to get rid of Hamilton and Carswell without success because unfortunately they are better behaved and reasonable than the rest of the motley crew I have. Oh and love me. I have a book coming out.

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Peregrina · 02/11/2016 13:20

Arron Bank's attitude, or your interpretation of it Red had me laughing out loud. It's a pity he didn't pull the plug before the poisonous referendum, and saved us the problems we have now.

ManonLescaut · 02/11/2016 13:27

UKIP haven't a hope in hell in Richmond and they know it - so there's no point even stumping up a fiver.

Unicornsarelovely · 02/11/2016 13:48

Terrifying question at PMQ:

Nigel Dodds, the DUP MP, asks May to condemn those talking up the increased risk of violence in Northern Ireland as a result of Brexit.

Note not those who are encouraging the violence or failing to put basic fears to rest in a country which is still hugely divided, but those bloody remoaners talking up the risk of violence.

TheBathroomSink · 02/11/2016 14:00

The 'What is going on?' question was about Louis Smith's suspension, although I do see how it could be applied to almost anything discussed on any subject...

RedToothBrush · 02/11/2016 14:00

Andy Burnham ‏@andyburnhammp
READ: Cross-party letter to @AmberRudd_MP asking the Government to support the call for a select committee inquiry into events at Orgreave.

Signed by Andy Burham (Lab), Tim Farron (Lib Dem), Joanna Cherry (SNP), Edward Leigh (Con), Mark Durkan (SDLP) and Caroline Lucas (Green) `

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night
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MagikarpetRide · 02/11/2016 14:03

Oh god, so now remainers are going to talk up violence so much people will start doing it? Because there's no one out there able to think for themselves anymore????

What is going on in this country because I no longer understand the rules?" Whoever asked this is probably more clued up than most other Torys.

I wish Mark Carney was god because if he was he could make all this disappear.

Unicornsarelovely · 02/11/2016 14:21

Unfortunately I think the "what is going on in this country" comment is today's version of "political correctness gorn mad".

lalalonglegs · 02/11/2016 14:55

Ability to talk down sterling/industry and encourage sectarian violence in Northern Ireland: it's amazing the power that Remainers have given that our opinions aren't worth anything Hmm.

Anyway, wasn't there talk some weeks/months back of irregularities from suspicious polling companies phoning up those that had been classed as "Don't Knows" in the run up to the referendum and asking a series of leading questions likely to plant seeds of doubt about a remain vote? Was there an investigation into it or has it been quietly shelved?

LurkingHusband · 02/11/2016 14:57

If sterling is susceptible to mere chatter, surely we are all fucked ?

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 02/11/2016 15:06

We are all fucked, simply because of this.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37829906

How did this happen? Why? I thought his political career was deader than the dodo?

What is going on in this country? What happened to the rules?

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