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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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Thread gallery
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whatwouldrondo · 01/11/2016 14:35

Maggie was reelected three times, in spite of scenes like Orgreave, cuts to education, social security and the NHS, a recession, the wholesale abandonment of large parts of the manufacturing sector to overseas competition and to paying increased infrastructure costs such as utilities, business rates etc. (free market economics were a two edged sword for SMEs). She too gained support by inhabiting the rhetoric of the National Front. I can't help thinking that maybe May who apparently regards Thatcher as a model thinks she can pull off the same trick of enlisting the working class vote by appealing to those emotions, though the Council house sell off is done and hopefully there won't be another Falklands, Brexit could deliver for her, whilst actually greatly worsening their economic situation? Basically people sat in their armchairs and believed what the Sun told them. There was a startling lack of alternative narratives too, I remember it took quite a while (no blogs, a book had to be written and published) for the full facts to emerge about the cocked up negotiations with the Argentines.

And then of course there is now that nouveau riche "loadsamoney" "metropolitan elite" that Thatcher helped create via nurturing the service economy.......

Peregrina · 01/11/2016 14:57

It was Matthew Parris who spent a week on benefits and although he was reluctant to admit it, it was clear that he didn't find it easy. He gave up politics not long after.

ImpYCelyn · 01/11/2016 14:58

I think the people saying that there are no voting choices and talking about protest votes highlight again why we need proper PR. Because they're spot on under our current electoral system. But that's another discussion...

prettybird · 01/11/2016 15:08

Michael Portillo has also done it: spent a week as a "single mum of 4". But a week is nowhere near long enough to understand what it truly feels like to struggle, day in, day out. Hmm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/3195040.stm

Peregrina · 01/11/2016 15:16

I didn't know that Portillo had done it as well. However, doing it for a week is nothing when you know that you will be able to go back to your moneyed life style the following week. It would be different if he'd been told and the end of the week that the experiment wasn't over and he had to keep going and that he wouldn't be told when the experiment was going to end.

Portillo did go up in my estimation when he lost the election and was gracious in defeat - unlike James Goldsmith.

RedToothBrush · 01/11/2016 15:22

Christian Odendahl @COdendahl
1 A little tweetstorm on Germany's #Brexit position and economic ties between GER & UK to follow. Not for faint-hearted among Brexiteers.
2 Münchau asks: "Do you honestly think #GER would sacrifice a 56bn trade surplus with UK for anything as lofty as a principled position?"
3 First, a surplus is really not that interesting: car exporter to UK does not care if other parts of the economy do not import as much.
4 And even in negotiations, it does not matter: the econ goal is not a trade surplus, but to maximise consumption, investment, prod. growth.
5 If the UK threatens to bloc EU imports, UK consumers will suffer as much/more (ie the main source of growth in UK over last 3 years).
6 Second, lets have a look at what kind of exports go from Germany to the UK (in % of total GER exports to the UK).

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night
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MitzyLeFrouf · 01/11/2016 15:22

I remember the Portillo programme and if I remember correctly he massively favoured one of the kids because she was brighter than her siblings.

I do quite like Portillo these days. Which is most disconcerting.

RedToothBrush · 01/11/2016 15:26

DH was expressing a disconcerting admiration for Portillo on Andrew Neil's show last week! He also said he didn't like him but he talked more sense than he thought previously.

The world really has gone a bit potty hasn't it?

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RBeer · 01/11/2016 15:32

I wouldn't worry about next Wednesday. Luckily, those whose vote would bring him over the line won't be voting. They won't have registered in time thanks to the GOPs non-existant ground Game.
There is a reason why the bookies are already paying out on Clinton.

InformalRoman · 01/11/2016 15:34

I do quite like Portillo these days. Which is most disconcerting.

But not as disconcerting as his taste in clothes ... especially his love of FRTs.

LurkingHusband · 01/11/2016 15:41

Interesting the distinction between customs and tax is being bought up.

I seem to recall they had a pivotal role in the English Civil War, where parliament collected tax, but the King collected customs (excise).

Charles I (and his advisors) became quite clever at creating new "customs" - and flogging grants of monopoly and trade.

Or is my history a bit off ?

GloriaGaynor · 01/11/2016 15:54

That's correct it was called 'tonnage and poundage', he did it by the royal prerogative.

GloriaGaynor · 01/11/2016 15:57

Oh and 'impositions' I meant to say.

twofingerstoGideon · 01/11/2016 15:58

The voting intentions are interesting. My dad and PILs have always voted tory no matter what. All voted remain and are upset about the referendum but don't see that as a reason not to vote tory at all. There appears to be almost a cognitive dissonance between the two.

I've posted this video before, but it's worth posting again. The look of horror on the interviewee's faces when they find out they're 'secret socialists'...

LurkingHusband · 01/11/2016 16:27

That's correct it was called 'tonnage and poundage', he did it by the royal prerogative.

So a King - rather up himself with the concept of divine right of Monarchs - uses Royal Prerogative as an end-run around parliament ?

Thank God we've moved on since then.

Oh, hang on Hmm

RedToothBrush · 01/11/2016 16:32

Ciaran Jenkins ‏@C4Ciaran
#Orgreave campaign say they went easy on Tories. Now gloves are off and they're "going after Thatcher and Tebbit."

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GloriaGaynor · 01/11/2016 16:38

Yup, trying to rule without parliament worked out well for Charles 1 and James II (deposed).

RedToothBrush · 01/11/2016 17:42

sluggerotoole.com/2016/11/01/eu-standardised-driving-licence-mostly-trumps-political-psychosis/
EU Standardised Driving Licence, mostly, Trumps Political Psychosis

Now this is a moan at the EU not the UK from an Irish point of view. However you might see how there might be problems of a similar type that spring from Brexit...

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Peregrina · 01/11/2016 17:46

I thought the Civil War started off with John Hampden and Ship Money, namely that 'they' were trying to levy it on the whole country and not just the port towns? (Digs in the recesses of the brain for long forgotten info from A level history.)

Good thing we have abolished the Death penalty, so the same fate as befell Charles can't befall May. Oh wait, the most rabid of the Leavers want to bring back the death penalty too.

Kaija · 01/11/2016 17:49

Wasn't approval of the death penalty one of the attitudes most closely correlated with voting Leave?

RedToothBrush · 01/11/2016 17:49

yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/results#/survey/3b3dcb20-a01d-11e6-9434-005056901c24
Battle of Orgreave results

1. From what you have heard, do you think the government was right or wrong to rule out holding an inquiry into the 1984 clash between police and striking miners known as the Battle of Orgreave?

Will of the People, folks, will of the people...

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SwedishEdith · 01/11/2016 17:49

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/01/single-market-lite-britain-eu-brexit

This was good by Duncan Weldon. I like DW, he followed the Greek crisis for Newsnight and was no great unblinkered supporter of the EU. In the run-up to the referendum, he said that if it had been at the time of the Greek crisis, he would have voted Leave. But, he then posted a string of tweets about why he feels differently now (based on economic arguments) and ended by saying the impact be felt most on those least able to afford it and he didn't feel (as a wealthy journo) that was his decision to make. I'm paraphrasing but, as he's clearly a leftie and from the NE, I thought his views were worth listeninng to.

Motheroffourdragons · 01/11/2016 17:52

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Motheroffourdragons · 01/11/2016 17:59

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SwedishEdith · 01/11/2016 18:07

"And yet, despite wanting to destroy the NHS and privatise anything which hasn't been already privatised, the Tories are supposedly ahead in the polls by something like 16%, so enough people must like what they are doing."

I think some people are simply happy when it looks like someone is in charge. Labour are clearly not united but the Tories present as though they are - you need to actually read up a bit to see that they aren't. So, to the casual not-too-interested-in-politics observer, the Tories appear to be doing well...for now.

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