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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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RedToothBrush · 01/11/2016 11:38

There is also another possibility here.

If there is even the smallest chance of civil unrest in the next 2 years due to Brexit or widespread strikes due to cuts, would you want policing of civil unrest to be under the microscope?

I'm not sure I would if I were in government...

Not necessarily just because they would be handled in the same way as policing has changed, but because the parallels would be there and that's enough to inflame such situations. It pains me to point it out, but in terms of maintaining order then this might be a smart move. However conversely, poor handling of such situations will have people looking straight back at Orgreave too so there is still rope to be hung on here as well.

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Peregrina · 01/11/2016 11:44

I don't think it's a smart move - the smart move would be to admit that damage was done, but to try to show how policing had progressed since then. All this will show is how completely out of touch Amber Rudd is with those old industrial heartlands, and how little she cares.

Peregrina · 01/11/2016 12:02

The Speaker has now granted an urgent question on Orgreave. The families are considering a Judicial Review, so it looks as though this issue won't go away quickly.

This is the country which Theresa May says she wants to work for everyone; although in practice, this just seems to mean a to work for a noisy subsection of the Conservative party.

RedToothBrush · 01/11/2016 12:13

www.independent.co.uk/voices/orgreave-inquiry-amber-rudd-refused-we-still-need-investigation-real-reason-is-why-a7390621.html
This is why we still need an inquiry into the Battle of Orgreave

There's one question that needs an answer: did the government of the day use the police as if they were a standing army?

I'll park that thought there.

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RedToothBrush · 01/11/2016 12:29

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/01/orgreave-class-war-96-dead-hillsborough-amber-rudd-inquiry

Owen Jones has now written a piece on Orgreave.

In the 1980s, the police were politicised, transformed into blunt instruments as part of a wider concerted mission to neutralise the British labour movement. It was in this context that South Yorkshire police were encouraged to dehumanise striking miners, to see them as violent, extremist, “enemy within” scum. When they violently charged at miners, lied about their behaviour with the complicity of the British media, dictated false witness statements and tried to stitch up their victims, they began a long march that ended in the Hillsborough disaster and 96 dead Liverpool fans. It was class war, and it ended with bodies sprawled in make-do mortuaries.

To move forward the government need to deal with this narrative head on. Otherwise it persists and only serves to suggest the same thing is happening today - which does play right back into the Brexit narrative.

Not dealing with it is, frankly, dangerous.

Andy Burham just about to have his emergency q in the HoC now.

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whatwouldrondo · 01/11/2016 12:57

This is a personal blog, and the writer a labour supporter, so obviously biased but he carries quotes purportedly from a Conservative Party policy paper by Nicholas Ridley on the nationalised industries from before the time they were in government (so clearly not an actual plan) which highlights the need intrinsic to their policies to prepare for unrest.

The actual plans on privatisation and the Thatcherite dogma on free markets are not quite as shocking as the writer claims. They were not a secret, or only in so much as the detailed plans were commercially in confidence to maximise the returns. There were armies of accountants, lawyers, investment bankers and other consultants crawling over every state enterprise, including the NHS, to come up with viable plans for privatisation (now what new great government plan for change does that remind you of Hmm )

However if this is a valid source I think the proposal to have "a large mobile squad of police" to prevent problems with picket lines does suggest there is some substance to your point Red

skwawkbox.org/2016/10/31/the-real-reason-rudd-wont-allow-an-orgreave-enquiry/

ManonLescaut · 01/11/2016 12:57

It's a really dumb move on Rudd's part. It won't go away any more than Hillsborough did.

RedToothBrush · 01/11/2016 13:07

Andy Burham question was blistering. Said "we are not going away". The Speaker has had to intervene when Philip Davies (Con) spoke as there was so much strength of feeling on the subject.
Diane Abbott now saying its notable that Rudd herself didn't come to the house to answer the question (Brandon Lewis speaking instead). She's echoed the point about not letting it go.

My father is a staunch Labour supporter. He's terribly middle class these days, but did have a very working class background and was one who benefited from grammar schools. One of the reasons he is still so bitter about the Conservatives and hates them so much is because of the way the miners were treated. At the time of the strikes we lived just outside a small rural town in the NW (not a mining area), and our neighbour happened to be a police officer. My parents were very friendly with them and my father heard from him about how he had been shipped out to deal with the strikes.

To this day, the issue is very important to him. The Orgreave decision fails to acknowledge this strength of feeling that many people have. For me, its something I am aware of but I'm not really part of. My father has never really spoken in detail about what his friend told him. I just know it was 'bad'. DH grew up in a mining area and I worked for a long time in a mining area, so I do have some awareness from that too, about how deeply this runs and how crucial it to current politics.

For those who were directly affected, it can only be even more important.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/01/uk-class-identity-america-customs-socioeconomic-divide?CMP=twt_gu
Just seen this article about class and identity from a man who moved to America and his reflection on it. Worth a quick read in the context of Brexit and Orgreave and problems in this country with regard to identity and politics.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/disability-benefit-cuts-welfare-esa-tory-mps-revolt-theresa-may-a7390461.html
Tory MPs launch fresh revolt against looming disability benefits cuts
A group of Conservative MPs is threatening to challenge Budget legislation over a £30-a-week cut to employment and support allowance - coming in next April

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/no-u-turn-on-cuts-that-will-take-1000-a-year-off-three-million-families-a-cabinet-minister-has-said-a7388661.html
No U-turn on benefit cuts that will take £1,000 a year off three million families, says Government

www.irishexaminer.com/business/brexit-may-mean-brexit-but-its-ultimately-about-tax-428418.html
BRIAN KEEGAN: Brexit may mean Brexit but it’s ultimately about tax

Irish piece on Brexit which has a comment that is note worthy.

However, the second purpose of customs, sometimes overlooked, may well be just as important. In most cases, EU countries retain the taxes they collect but customs is different. For every €100 in customs duty collected, €75 goes directly to Brussels to fund the European project. Only €25 goes to our exchequer as a sort of handler’s fee for going to the trouble of collecting it.

The more favourable any future customs deal between the UK and the EU, the less direct cash for Brussels.

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Peregrina · 01/11/2016 13:20

The miners strike and the way they were treated turned my mother from being a lifelong moderate Tory, to one who sent a donation to the Miners Strike fund. She was disgusted and never voted Tory again.

RedToothBrush · 01/11/2016 13:22

Ciaran Jenkins @C4Ciaran
Tory MP Philip Davies accuses miners of "bullying and intimidation". House of Commons is replaying the 1980s. #orgreave

Ciaran Jenkins ‏@C4Ciaran
Davies says he was speaking from experience of the miners strike.

(He was 12 year old.)

uk.businessinsider.com/crispin-odey-letter-to-clients-on-brexit-recession-higher-inflation-2016-11?r=US&IR=T
Brexit-backing hedge fund chief: The UK is now 'destined' for a recession and higher inflation

More Carney bashing. But someone is doing very well out of it.

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Peregrina · 01/11/2016 13:28

And yet, despite wanting to destroy the NHS and privatise anything which hasn't been already privatised, the Tories are supposedly ahead in the polls by something like 16%, so enough people must like what they are doing.

GloriaGaynor · 01/11/2016 13:40

I think people (leave voters) are still in massive denial over the consequences. They're still seeing it as a brave new world.

And they're dismissing all the negative economic feedback as short term pain for long term gain. What the gain will be they can never articulate.

GloriaGaynor · 01/11/2016 13:40

In other words people like what they think is coming.

GloriaGaynor · 01/11/2016 13:44

Benefit cap that will cost some hard up families £1000 a year, the true state of NHS finances, inflation, there's collective denial over where we are actually headed.

MagikarpetRide · 01/11/2016 13:51

I keep meaning to join in here and seeing the Hesseltine story made me go aha, must pop in. Only to find you talking about very much more important things Blush.

With Orgreave the thing that keeps playing in my mind is that 'the police acted correctly' and I really can't help thinking that's what they apparently did at Hillsborough too.

twofingerstoGideon · 01/11/2016 13:51

And yet, despite wanting to destroy the NHS and privatise anything which hasn't been already privatised, the Tories are supposedly ahead in the polls by something like 16%, so enough people must like what they are doing.

This always baffles me, too. I think voting habits are very entrenched and there are huge numbers of people who 'always' vote for a particular party without really considering how damaging their policies are, even when they affect them personally.

Peregrina · 01/11/2016 13:57

Benefit cap that will cost some hard up families £1000 a year,

Ah yes, and we have a Prime Minister who wants to help those who are 'just managing'.

Bearbehind · 01/11/2016 13:59

I think the problem is a lack of choice. I've always voted Tory but don't agree with what's happening now however, I wouldn't vote for Labour and thus Corbyn if my life depended on it and I don't see a vote for any other UK parties as anything more than a protest vote.

Unicornsarelovely · 01/11/2016 14:00

There are some interesting articles on Brexit in the FT's future of Britain series www.ft.com/content/d709a6a8-9129-11e6-a72e-b428cb934b78 including a particular gem from Ryan Bourne of the Institute of Economic Affairs where he says Britain could lead the world in abolishing profits as a tax base entirely and reconsider all the clinical trials, environmental and insurance regulation free from the precautionary principle.

I know people affected by the contaminated blood scandal in the 1980s who are still trying to get compensation from the government for that failure. If Mr Bourne thinks changing clinical trials regulations are such a good idea, perhaps he'd be the first guinea pig.

Kaija · 01/11/2016 14:00

I think people simply don't know. It's still "project fear". And when it becomes impossible not to see it, they'll most likely go back to blaming immigrants (like Mark Carney).

Unicornsarelovely · 01/11/2016 14:02

This may have been posted some way back but is the counterpoint to the economists for Brexit plan roaming the internet: cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit06.pdf

prettybird · 01/11/2016 14:03

But they are helping....

They're encouraging hard up people to get the jobs that grow on trees so that they can earn more Hmm.

Unicornsarelovely · 01/11/2016 14:04

The voting intentions are interesting. My dad and PILs have always voted tory no matter what. All voted remain and are upset about the referendum but don't see that as a reason not to vote tory at all. There appears to be almost a cognitive dissonance between the two.

RedToothBrush · 01/11/2016 14:19

I think I see things a particular way because I am a northerner (though not a 'true' northerner in other ways. I'm a southerner by birth, and my parents don't really regard themselves as either as they moved around a great deal in their youth.)

The north / south thing is HUGE and I think is changing and evolving. And probably widening. Whilst I think the system of having MPs being tied to a constituency is one that is essential and has a lot of positives, I can't help but think after the weekend and the reaction to Orgreave, just how much a MP pairing system or short term 'constituency swap' (rather like a foreign exchange programme) would be a worthwhile scheme to open the eyes of a few politicians. There is a missing part of 'national' interest to British politics.

The accusation that politicians are out of touch 'in the London bubble' is not really about London to me, but more about having a very narrow perception of the country with many never visiting communities outside their own constituency and Westminster.

I think I realise I'm pretty privileged (and I do see it like this) to have seen a variety of different versions of England (and the UK as a whole), because of where I've lived and worked, and where I have friends and events I have lived through (even bad ones).

I do think the sheer difference in Scottish, Welsh and NI politics really is a consequence of this as much as nationalist thought, but I do think the differences within England itself are becoming worse too.

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prettybird · 01/11/2016 14:35

I like your idea about MP twinning - but it would need to be for a decent amount of time.

Was it Michael Portillo who spent a week living on benefits? They need to do it for so much longer to get a true idea - including having to go though work-capability assessments and potential sanctions for being late for Job Centre meetings while being dependency on late-running buses Hmm

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