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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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Peregrina · 01/11/2016 18:09

Compensation was paid out, but no one was really held responsible. The end result is a community which no longer trusts the Police. Do we want to be able to trust our Police force or not? So yes, I think there should be an enquiry, and I would think so if a Labour Government had behaved the same way.

Peregrina · 01/11/2016 18:12

I think some people are simply happy when it looks like someone is in charge.

I think also that they think that e.g. the cuts are going to fall on someone else, and not them. Like the woman on Question Time angry about having her working tax credits threatened. No doubt she was fully happy to see 'benefit scroungers' penalised, and didn't realise that in the higher echelons of the Tory party, she was a 'benefit scrounger'.

Motheroffourdragons · 01/11/2016 18:22

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lalalonglegs · 01/11/2016 18:23

The artist, Jeremy Deller, filmed a reconstruction of the Battle of Orgreave using a combination of miners who were there and military re-enactment enthusiasts. It's makes very sobering, if anyone's interested . In my opinion, an enquiry would be a very good thing - the miners' strike left very deep scars in many communities and some of the people in them still feel that they are ignored and unheard. Amber Rudd's reasoning seems pretty thin and her decision is cruel.

lalalonglegs · 01/11/2016 18:24

it makes very sobering viewing...

SwedishEdith · 01/11/2016 18:24

Exactly. I remember speaking to a friend shortly after the referendum who was horrified by the result but casually mentioned she'd voted Tory. She's not a stereotypical Tory, just didn't connect her vote and the risk of the UKIPisation of the UK.

Motheroffourdragons · 01/11/2016 18:27

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Peregrina · 01/11/2016 18:43

I think an enquiry might help to show that policing in South Yorkshire has been cleaned up. It's not just enough to say so, it needs to be seen to be the case.

twofingerstoGideon · 01/11/2016 18:56

So, to the casual not-too-interested-in-politics observer, the Tories appear to be doing well...for now.
I think you're right, Swedish. There is a massive lack of political engagement in this country and an awful lot of people who prefer, for example, to listen to music stations than current affairs or news and who never read or skim read the print news. Who can blame them really? I sometimes think the more engaged you are, the more depressed/helpless you feel.

lalalonglegs · 01/11/2016 19:05

I agree it might not make any real difference - it won't reopen the mines or reignite industry in some of those old pit villages and it probably won't even lead to any charges brought against individual police officers - but the miners and their supporters were shat on from a very great height and it might give them a sense of catharsis.

Peregrina · 01/11/2016 19:14

I think so too, lala. These are people Theresa May wants to court, and she will have to do an awful lot to win them over. She's lost the first round, or rather Amber Rudd has. Maybe May would have behaved differently - it's hard to tell.

StripeyMonkey1 · 01/11/2016 19:43

So, to the casual not-too-interested-in-politics observer, the Tories appear to be doing well...for now.

That could start to unravel if the Liberal Democrats win in Richmond. There are a number of Conservatives in strong Remain areas who could risk being unseated at a General Election by the Lib Dems (my local area, which is not London, would be a prime example).

Labour does not, at first sight at least, appear to be exposed on Brexit in anything like the same way.

Once Article 50 has been invoked, given the slim Conservative majority, a General Election at any time must be on the cards. Surely, this would give Theresa May pause for thought?

lalalonglegs · 01/11/2016 19:44

It is odd that the decision was seen as a formality - I'm pretty sure that the Guardian website was trailing the announcement of an enquiry as a done deal yesterday morning - but then Rudd put the kibosh on in the afternoon. I'm curious to know why there was a last minute U-turn on it. TM was seen to have made (for her) moderately encouraging noises about it when she was at the Home Office Confused. Sadly, the theory that they want to preserve the purity of the Thatcher legend seems the most likely explanation.

TheElementsSong · 01/11/2016 19:59

Why would talented academics want a career in Brexit-voting Britain, where a handful of refugee children provoke a tabloid firestorm?

www.theguardian.com/education/2016/nov/01/universities-suffer-brexit-britain-refugee-children?

Peregrina · 01/11/2016 20:12

There are a number of Conservatives in strong Remain areas who could risk being unseated at a General Election by the Lib Dems (my local area, which is not London, would be a prime example).

So is mine. I have just written again to my MP asking for an answer to a letter I wrote almost three months ago. I got an immediate reply from a flunky to say they will chase it up. Perhaps the veiled threat not to vote for her worked?

Motheroffourdragons · 01/11/2016 20:30

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Peregrina · 01/11/2016 21:02

I have certainly not got any less angry and probably more.

RedToothBrush · 01/11/2016 21:11

She's not a stereotypical Tory, just didn't connect her vote and the risk of the UKIPisation of the UK.

Can I ask what a stereotypical tory is? I think there are plenty of tories who are mortified by the EU referendum and a lot of the things going on. There is a massive range of tory voters just as much as there is a big range Liberal Democrat and Labour voters. As are their reasons for voting in that way.

I think the suggestion that tory voters somehow fit into a nice little box isn't particularly helpful. If for no other reason that there are many swing voters and in recent years there has been relatively little difference between policies in the main three parties (which has actually been part of the problem).

I personally have voted for all three at one time or another, either nationally or locally and I had reason to do so which I think is fair. If only because it was a choice between something I dislike and something I disliked even more.

And I think this is often what it is ending up boiling down to. Voting for the least worst option rather than actively voting for something, which is creating false mandates and impressions of what the public actually want.

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Peregrina · 01/11/2016 21:19

Voting for the least worst option rather than actively voting for something, which is creating false mandates and impressions of what the public actually want.

I think that is so true and has caused particular problems with the Referendum, because there isn't the option to vote again in a few years time if we don't like what is negotiated. Leave won, but Theresa May has taken it upon herself to assume that immigration is the key issue. I would suggest that in places like Yorkshire and the North East, sticking it to Cameron was just as much a factor. Maggie Thatcher has not been forgiven there.

RedToothBrush · 02/11/2016 00:07

www.irishnews.com/news/2016/11/02/news/all-island-dublin-brexit-forum-to-go-ahead-without-the-first-minister-765692/
All-island Dublin forum on Brexit to take place without Arlene Foster and DUP

First Minister Arlene Foster declined the invitation insisting she had better things to do than listen to a lot of “grandstanding remoaners”.

This is disgusting. Mainly because Ireland aren't remoaners because Ireland are a different country and didn't vote in the referendum and are being directly impacted on because of the way the result went.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37841605
It's the data, stupid

Totally fascinating piece on the use of big data and importance of experts to analysis how people thought and behaved in the EU referendum to be able to effectively mobilise the vote.

For the Leave campaign.

www.ft.com/content/964afa06-8f0b-11e6-8df8-d3778b55a923
Britain will discover that distance still matters in trade
It will be tough to replace access to EU services markets with business elsewhere

In short, geopolitics matter and the world is not flat. And it applies to services as well as goods despite what people think.

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mathanxiety · 02/11/2016 05:07

The DUP look as if they are acting in terribly bad faith when it comes to the GFA. The GFA depends on the EU framework and has three parties to it, including the Republic. They have already thumbed their noses at the EU, and now they are thumbing their noses at the Republic and at all sane parties in NI. If it was only at their own peril I doubt anyone would give a flying f//*. But by doing this they are imperiling everyone in NI.

I sincerely hope the Tories did not encourage them to take this stance but I fear that the visit of Foster to the Tory Party Conference may have resulted in a massive nail in the coffin of the GFA.

Peregrina · 02/11/2016 05:09

It's the data stupid

What!! Shock, horror, they used expert physicists and mathematicians to develop software. I thought we had had enough of experts. Michael Gove told us so.

mathanxiety · 02/11/2016 05:11

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/31/suspicion-britain-child-refugee-disabled-person

I don't know if this has already been posted, but I think it is a very good reflection on the topic of why people will vote Tory for the foreseeable.

Peregrina · 02/11/2016 05:19

I feel sickened by the way this country is now behaving math. I have a friend who is a wheelchair user and who regularly gets called a scrounger. Never mind that she has never claimed for a day in benefits, and holds down a responsible and well paid job. Which is probably more than her accusers do.

This has been going on since before the Referendum - the Referendum has just legitimised the behaviour.

merrymouse · 02/11/2016 07:03

These comments about Donald Trump from December last year seem to come from another age:

David Cameron: "If he came to visit our country, I think he would unite us all against him"

Nigel Farage: "Mr Trump's somewhat kneejerk reaction to this, saying that all Muslims should be banned from coming into America, was, perhaps, for him, a political mistake too far."

The good old days, before we'd had enough of experts.

I