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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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RedToothBrush · 31/10/2016 22:15

www.ft.com/content/b1269118-9e98-11e6-891e-abe238dee8e2
Secrecy over Brexit talks ‘risks doing damage’, says Andrew Tyrie

Tory MP warns of leaks and calls for parliamentary involvement as cabinet rift widens

I think Tyrie's comments need to be seen in the context of this article in the FT today:
But Mr Tyrie told the Financial Times shortly before Nissan’s announcement: “I think the uncertainty is carrying a price. You have only got to look at what the British Bankers’ Association … and a very large number of firms are saying, and I would be very surprised if they were all making it up.”

The head of the main UK banking lobby group has warned that executives at big international lenders had their hands “quivering over the relocate button” because of fears about losing their passporting rights to access the EU single market.

and he later says:

“At the moment I think the cabinet ministers, frankly, are adding to the uncertainty by revealing after every meeting what appear to be sizeable differences between themselves about what the outcome should be. That in itself will start to carry a price if it continues.

He's unhappy with the whole lot of them. I don't think its directed at Carney himself as such - more the whole situation and dynamic of why Carney was in this position.

www.ft.com/content/5dc6fd46-9f56-11e6-891e-abe238dee8e2
Brexiters who bully Bank governor Mark Carney will target others
Such intimidating behaviour reflects leading Leavers’ paranoia – and power

This is also why its destabilising.

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prettybird · 31/10/2016 22:19

Peregrina - you're not the only one Grin another shallow emoticon Wink

whatwouldrondo · 31/10/2016 22:34

Defintely not the only shallow one, I would be very happy to have Justin Trudeau and Mark Carmel in my fantasy Cabinet, along with my girl crushes, Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth Davidson. I blame my mother who used to lust after Pierre Trudeau......

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 31/10/2016 22:35

I find him quite calming

Theres a man who knows what he is talking about - i think to myself

whatwouldrondo · 31/10/2016 22:49

Carney! Autocorrect has been hijacked by the right....

HesterThrale · 31/10/2016 22:56

Gotta love David Attenborough. We need more intelligent, universally-respected people like him to speak up. He questions using referendums and says we need to listen to experts more:
www.radiotimes.com/news/2016-10-31/david-attenborough-on-his-brexit-concerns---and-why-we-do-need-experts

jaws5 · 31/10/2016 23:01

hester, love that, brilliant in its truth.

Peregrina · 31/10/2016 23:05

Now talking of David Attenborough and the Research Vessel that has been named after him. The committee decided that Boaty McBoatface was stupid and overruled the vote, just keeping it for one of the ship's lifeboats. But our politicians - 'the people have spoken'. It would have done us less damage to have a ship called Boaty McBoatface, but wrecking the country, that is fine.

People with stature, like David Attenborough, are beginning to speak out, but they get short shrift.

jaws5 · 31/10/2016 23:16

stature that's exactly what we need more, but all this "the will of the people" rhetoric is dismissing. Yes, we can all opine. No, all opinions have not the same value.

Kaija · 31/10/2016 23:27

Yes I agree. They will get a hard time but the more that do it the more likely we are to see a shift.

Here's Helen Mirren:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us580e6ecce4b02444efa4d5f6?section=ussworld%3Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2Fentry%2Fhelen-mirren-brexit-trumpuss580e6ecce4b02444efa4d5f6%3Fsection%3Dus_world%3Fncid%3Dedlinkushpmg00000304

mathanxiety · 01/11/2016 01:12

It's not just the bullying of Carney. It's the failure of the PM to stop it, and her own pandering to the bullies in her comments at the Party Conference.

She is looking incredibly bad, a really poor manager. The markets abhor a vacuum.

mathanxiety · 01/11/2016 04:32

www.theguardian.com/business/nils-pratley-on-finance/2016/oct/31/mark-carney-theresa-may-bank-of-england-tory-conference

'May, we were told after the conference speech, did not mean to question the Bank’s independence and was merely expressing sympathy with savers.

She should learn to take care. Her words provoked a pointless row about central bank independence and she ended up begging Carney to stay. In the event, the governor has agreed the shortest possible extension. He has had the last laugh while May’s handling looks amateurish.'

Mistigri · 01/11/2016 05:05

^But Treasury Select Committee chairman Andrew Tyrie said his decision to serve six years "requires a good deal of examination and explanation".
I doubt Tyrie is calling for a public investigation of those who have made it impossible for Carney to continue as Governor. The imputation that Carney is somehow abandoning his post is grossly unfair^

In view of Tyrie's past interventions on the subject, and his obvious respect for courteous, fact-based discourse (see the videos of the treasury select committee demolitions of BoJo and Cummings), this does not read as critical of Carney but of those who have undermined and attacked him.

mathanxiety · 01/11/2016 05:34

On reflection I think you are right Mistigri. Off to look up the videos.

I wish him luck taking on the Brexit borg. They are clearly being allowed to run amok.

Mistigri · 01/11/2016 07:09

Indeed math. I'm no Tory, but our democracy would be poorer without MPs like Andrew Tyrie.

iwanttoridemybicycle · 01/11/2016 07:30

David Attenborough is very wise. Unfortunately the can of worms has been opened now and will be very hard to close again. Sad

Motheroffourdragons · 01/11/2016 08:54

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

prettybird · 01/11/2016 09:01

It would be interesting if he does choose to go into politics: he's already joked in his dry fashion emphasised that he's a technocrat, not a politician.

SapphireStrange · 01/11/2016 09:40

But, but, but.... what are Tories doing agreeing deals with Nissan? I thought they believed in Free Markets - so something shouldn't need state aid, it should go to the wall.

Total contradiction, isn't it? I find it baffling.

Peregrina · 01/11/2016 10:27

I said the 'But, but, but... post' a bit tongue in cheek, but still - the rest of us are being told about the wonderful opportunities outside the EU - so why weren't Nissan? Since I live near Oxford and know a number of people working at BMW, I wonder if they will get their deal too, or won't they, because we voted Remain, so we should just be 'sucking it up'? To be fair, there is more work in Oxfordshire, than there is in the N East but losing a major employer would be a blow.

RedToothBrush · 01/11/2016 10:52

The will of the people that May goes on about.... so if the will of the people is to support an inquiry into Orgreave?

Yet Rudd took the decision to go against this citing that it wouldn't achieve the things that the public felt it would. And this is despite May as Home Secretary encouraging the families and those directly affected by Orgreave to push for an inquiry.

The idea of the 'the will of the people' is only one that is worthy if you stick by the principle all the time - and not just if there is referendum on it. Otherwise you merely undermine the very idea that you are trying to represent - and erode trust and public confidence in political institutions anyway.

I think it significant. This is a kick in the teeth for former mining communities. Who voted how in the referendum? This is a massive opportunity for Labour to reconnect with those communities. If they have got any sense they will grab onto Orgreave and keep pushing for it. Its a gift to the Labour Party. Where is UKIP on this one?

Labour have said it was a political decision to protect the Conservatives. And of course it is. Even Conservatives effectively admit this:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/31/amber-rudd-praised-for-resisting-calls-for-battle-of-orgreave-in/
Amber Rudd praised for resisting calls for Battle of Orgreave inquiry amid fears it would be 'stick to beat the Thatcher government'

Norman Tebbit has praised the Orgreave decision:
He told The Daily Telegraph: “This is a sensible decision which underlines that the police behaved properly at Orgreave. An inquiry could have been used as a stick with which to beat the Thatcher government.

Thatcher's ghost should not be forgotten in its importance to Conservatives. She is almost a religion and what they aspire to again. And here is a problem. Brexiteers are actively supporting the idea of government subsidies to industry in the wake of Nissan (the important bit is the public voicings of support for the idea, not the actual contents of Clark's letter to Nissan.) This is the total opposite to what Thatcher did - she got rid of government subsidies to industry.

May herself has challenged the principle of the individual which was central to Thatcherite thinking by promoting the idea of a stake in society on a collective basis and citizenship being so important.

And of course there are the parallels in May being a woman and a desire to have a second Thatcher.

The Conservatives are facing an identity crisis. One that is bigger than the Labour one (which has hit a new crisis with Corbyn's Momentum dividing). I don't think this can be understated.

Its another situation for the Conservative where they effectively are damned if they do or damned if they don't. It was a choice between the wider public interest and their own political interest.

The trouble is they have not learned from the referendum - there were lots of messages that it gave. They have picked on the immigration one. But its not the only one.

There was another message was loud and clear and that is that the ex-mining communities have not recovered from the Thatcher years and don't feel listened to politically. So much of the referendum vote was about voting against those who have put self interest ahead of the wider public interest.

Orgreave isn't going anywhere...

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RedToothBrush · 01/11/2016 10:58

Plus the out come of Orgreave?

Who can you blame but the government? There is no one else to point the finger at, if someone is at fault.

You wouldn't want to set a precedent like that now would you? Not when there are plenty of other people to pin the blame on.

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SapphireStrange · 01/11/2016 10:58

Peregrina, yes, I know; but I do find it puzzling that the Tories at the moment seem to be all for free markets until... um, until free markets don't suit them and political expediency/not pissing off the people in Sunderland does...

Red, you should send your thoughts on Orgreave above to any or all in the Labour party!

Peregrina · 01/11/2016 11:27

I think that Rudd/May have played the Orgreave situation badly. The blame would have gone to South Yorkshire Police who were later proved to be corrupt with the Hillsborough findings. So I think this could have been a relatively easy propaganda win for them. These communities are, after all, the ones they are now trying to court. They have mopped up most of the UKIP vote in the South East so need to gain the seats from Labour in the North.

The Conservatives are facing an identity crisis. One that is bigger than the Labour one (which has hit a new crisis with Corbyn's Momentum dividing). I don't think this can be understated. Which they are just about managing to cover up, aided by the Red Top press (Mirror excepted). This certainly explains why Remain voting MPs in Remain constituencies are now supporting hard Brexit with the zeal of converts, and ignoring constituents letters to them. (Yes, Nicola Blackwood, still waiting a reply to a letter from early September.)

Peregrina · 01/11/2016 11:38

I have just read the Telegraph piece. My recollection is that there were either wrongful convictions which were later quashed or that the Court cases were thrown out before Conviction. The bitterness engendered will not go away, whatever Amber Rudd thinks.

Thinking back to those times and earlier, my Grandparents were from South Yorkshire, and there was some corruption scandal concerning the Police back in the early sixties. I can't now remember it fully, but it sounds as though that forces behaviour at Orgreave and Hillsborough didn't come out of nowhere.

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