Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
Kaija · 31/10/2016 18:52

Yes, agree, the abandoning of reason as a basis for decision making is probably the scariest part of Brexit (and Trump too).

The big pound drops of course came immediately after the vote and May's announcement on Article 50 at the Tory party conference, not after any of Mark Carney's speeches.

jaws5 · 31/10/2016 18:54

Brexiteers voted with their hearts, "gut instinct" in the words of many voters, because that was considered superior to the warnings of "experts" The logical step after that is denial of reality and use of false dichotomies. When it all implodes we will have to witness how they blame those who "talked the country down" and the evil EU for existing in the first place... so depressing.

Kaija · 31/10/2016 18:58

Yes.

Have we discussed Hypernormalisation on here yet? Has everyone seen it?

RedToothBrush · 31/10/2016 19:13

WrongTrouser Sun 30-Oct-16 00:41:11
I feel like I have gate-crashed your thread and now everyone else has left. Sorry Please feel free to ignore my posts.

Really please don't feel like that! I welcome any constructive contribution! I have had an interesting weekend away and its given me a few things to reflect on in terms of the split in the UK.

Just catching up on things after getting home this afternoon, but will try and reflect on it over the next few days.

(RedToothBrush, as an aside, have you seen the work of Hack Brexit in providing 'acceleration' teams for tech solutions to advance a less divided Britain? Don't know if that sounds too abstract but it boils down to looking at how they could help you/us find a platform to reach more people of all views to share and confront ideas etc. There's a meet up today in London and I'm tempted to go, though I don't have a clear idea to discuss.)

Sounds interesting. Is that associated with Thoughtworks? I'm sure that DH might be particularly interested.

Pheme.eu also sounds interesting. Will have a lot into that one too.

but I wouldn't want to be gay in Glasgow for example, perhaps Marseille is similar
I think that's a statement that's somewhat unfair to Glasgow. There are parts of Glasgow that might be true but for the most part Glasgow - like pretty much all UK cities - is pretty cosmopolitan and liberal minded. That type of small minded thinking is much more the preserve of smaller provisional towns in 2016.

As I say I was thinking about this in London over the weekend and how many 'different Britains' that there are. I do think there are some clear divides within the country which are worth trying to understand better.

Carney going in June 2019? He's been persuaded to stick it out, but didn't want to do the whole lot (How old are his kids?)

What will it do? Probably calm things in the short term. But only in the short term. It depends on how things start to shape up.

(Pound has gone up since the announcement)

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/10/31/pound-edges-towards-122-amid-reports-bank-of-england-governor-ma/
Live Mark Carney to stay on as Bank of England governor until end of June 2019 - as pound becomes world's worst-performing currency this month

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/31/mark-carney-britain-chaos-theresa-may-government-brexit?CMP=share_btn_tw
Mark Carney is what stands between Britain and economic chaos

This second article was from before the announcement - and it still begs the question about what happens when Carney goes.

A new Governor 3 months after we have left the EU? That sounds somewhat bad timing... if of course we do leave.

www.ft.com/content/cd0d2ad4-9d23-11e6-a6e4-8b8e77dd083a
The Nissan deal hints at a route for Brexit Britain

The longer the interim period, the softer the Brexit. That might be the face-saving compromise

This article has got a couple of people wondering just how much leaving is actually going to be 'leaving'.

Greg Clark has been in the Commons this evening saying that he will not reveal the contents of the Nissan letter. The SNP have put in a FOI request (which they probably will be denied on commercial grounds - but that in itself is revealing and damaging to the government if they go down that route).

Peter Ungphakorn @CoppetainPU who has worked with the WTO for twenty years has commented over the weekend on the Nissan deal in terms of doing deals by sector. The comments are important:

Peter Ungphakorn ‏@CoppetainPU 6 hours ago
For me, some ideas discussed now are waste of time eg free trade in cars. Still learning @leemakiyama @DGWilkinson @alanbeattie @BaldwinRE

Why? Well the US and Canada tried to have an 'auto-pact' but this was challenged by the WTO - so a sector by sector deal isn't even possible. (This is also different from the stuff the other day about government subsidies for industry and WTO rules).

Peter Ungphakorn ‏@CoppetainPU Oct 30
@UKEURefWatch @rowenamason Sigh. Again. Tariff-free deal for carmakers alone wd violate WTO non-discrimination rule

Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband
Govt says Nissan must know its Brexit plan (fine) but Parl't can't know or vote on it due to secrecy. Totally unsustainable position.

Ed Miliband very correct here.

There have been a couple of people on twitter who have pointed out how there was an encouragement of dialogue with & contributions from public for the CETA agreement.
ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ceta/questions-and-answers/

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/31/why-all-conservatives-should-want-parliament-to-have-the-final-s/
Why all Conservatives should want Parliament to have the final say on Article 50

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/mp-glyn-davies-sparks-backlash-for-his-controversial-attack-on-academics_uk_58176217e4b04660a439d011?xb1gih2q0cv3lq5mi&ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067
MP Glyn Davies Sparks Backlash For His Controversial Attack On Academics

Then there's the Orgreave decision - May was directly involved in inviting the families to request an inquiry. That's ones not going away.

Nor is the Tory rebellion about the NHS lead by Sarah Wollaston about the misleading figures of how much it was getting.

OP posts:
jaws5 · 31/10/2016 19:17

Yes, I've watched it and many here have too as it was discussed on previous thread. The interesting thing Curtis does so well is his analysis of the interaction between media and power. Fascinating in the context of the whole Brexit process.

InformalRoman · 31/10/2016 19:20

Carney's daughters are aged about 8 to 14 I think?

TheBathroomSink · 31/10/2016 19:27

The Canadian elections are in 2019, and I've seen it suggested on Twitter that he has political ambitions, which would explain the decision.

Although not wanting to stick around and be kicked repeatedly(as a diversion) when it turns out that the Brexit faithful were wrong and realise that 'talking up' the economy isn't going to help may also have something to do with it.

jaws5 · 31/10/2016 19:45

(In the pub thread the punters are now laughing at foreigners and wondering why UK can't just trade freely with the world).

GlassOfPort · 31/10/2016 19:48

It's a pity about the Brexit pub though...we all end up talking with people who think like us.

I don't know if anyone has seen Michael More in Trumpland (it was on C4 a couple of days ago). I thought it was interesting how he tried to reach out to Trump supporters without sounding condescending.

jaws5 · 31/10/2016 19:51

I haven't seen the M Moore, sounds worth watching. But your description reminded me of this by Faisal Islam in Sunderland.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=QiPbHrTstQs

Mistigri · 31/10/2016 19:51

Tariff-free deal for carmakers alone wd violate WTO non-discrimination rule

This is why I said, a few pages back, that the deal with Nissan means that May has accepted that we're heading for an EEA agreement (or a prolonged state of pretending to leave but not actually doing it that will last at least the life of a vehicle model).

jaws5 · 31/10/2016 19:53

Mistigri, absolutely agree, it will have to be much longer as more companies, including small importers, insist they get same deal.

SwedishEdith · 31/10/2016 20:01

I saw Trumpland. Not sure what I thought of it. Was his audience mixed or just Trump supporters? Presume in Trump voting heartland? Just seemed a bit simplistic - I was expecting something more substantial, I think, but I don't know what so just felt a bit, "Is that is?"

jaws5 · 31/10/2016 20:06

Thanks red for being back and all those like links!

Lico · 31/10/2016 20:14

Thanks Red.

prettybird · 31/10/2016 20:39

I think I liked this response the best about Glyn Davies' dismissal of academics as having no real life experience....

"Of course, the beauty of our parliamentary system is that lack of intelligence is no bar to becoming an MP.
[[https://t.co/yTKcLNRY7V
twitter.com/glyndaviesmp/s
tatus/792386609396191233
…]]…^" Grin

jaws5 · 31/10/2016 20:57

pretty Grin I like this one Mr Malky ‏@MrMalky
@glyndaviesmp Why did you bother going to University at 50 then?
Was it cos your experience of the real world was the family farm?

prettybird · 31/10/2016 21:00

Oh - I follow MrMalky - but hadn't noticed that one Grin

autumnintheair · 31/10/2016 21:02

I don't know if anyone has seen Michael More in Trumpland

^^ I saw part of it today and couldnt believe his audacity trying to claim all leave voters regretted their vote and that the uk was panicking.

lalalonglegs · 31/10/2016 21:32

Unusually for a documentary maker, Michael Moore isn't averse to the odd post-factual titbit himself. Didn't he claim a couple of months ago that Trump was deliberately sabotaging his own campaign because he never wanted to be president and just ran to ratchet up his fee for The Apprentice Hmm?

mathanxiety · 31/10/2016 21:40

www.bbc.com/news/business-37829069
Earlier in the day, Mr Carney had an almost two-hour meeting with Mrs May, after which a spokeswoman said the prime minister would be "supportive of him going on beyond his five years" and "absolutely" believed he was "the right man for the job".

There is no way Carney could stay on with such a gaping and no doubt galling absence of a public and resounding endorsement from No. 10 as soon as Brexit idiots started openly criticising him and his Brexit approach.

I would like to have been a fly on the wall during that two hour meeting. I hope he gave TM much food for thought.

But Treasury Select Committee chairman Andrew Tyrie said his decision to serve six years "requires a good deal of examination and explanation".
I doubt Tyrie is calling for a public investigation of those who have made it impossible for Carney to continue as Governor. The imputation that Carney is somehow abandoning his post is grossly unfair, since he has been under constant fire since the Referendum (or before it actually) with faint praise, if any, to support him and very few voices raised to support the essential independence of the Bank of England.

mathanxiety · 31/10/2016 21:42

The perception that Carney has been given no choice but to resign is going to damage the UK for a long time.

HesterThrale · 31/10/2016 21:51

So his resignation date...
Persuaded to stay a bit longer than he wanted, by May, to reduce market jitters?
To see us through to Brexit?
To satisfy himself that he's given it his best shot, and not given up?

I don't blame him if he wants out; the job description has changed since he came. There was no Brexit on the cards when he started.

Peregrina · 31/10/2016 21:58

But, but, but.... what are Tories doing agreeing deals with Nissan? I thought they believed in Free Markets - so something shouldn't need state aid, it should go to the wall. (If the people turn to UKIP as a response, which is now BlueKIP, then it's bonus time for them.) Forgive the cynicism. What is their game?

Peregrina · 31/10/2016 22:06

Maybe it's also a good time for his children's schooling, and since he's had nothing but criticism from clowns like Gove, (who was a disaster at Education and looked like a little boy caught raiding the biscuit tin when his side won the Referendum), then he thought "£$%^* to this, I'm off asap". A pity ... worth keeping him for his looks alone. [Shallow emoticon.]