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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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twofingerstoGideon · 30/10/2016 10:46

Another thing that has immensely cheered me in the last few days is that the French press has decided to name and shame racist commentary about migrants on their below the line/ facebook pages.
This is such a good idea. I'm convinced that allowing racist commentary to stand online without challenge makes others believe these repugnant views are acceptable.

ImpYCelyn · 30/10/2016 10:46

Agree Mistigri all our neighbours and my in-laws were absolutely gobsmacked that people just dismissed experts. But the French social hierarchy is so education linked that they still have a lot of respect for those 'who know better ' (too much occasionally outrageous bloody paternalism from doctors). Considering how sensationalist the British reporting of the French response has been, it's very funny to actually see the French response. More of a shrug.

(far more outraged that EDF has been stupid enough to enter into a deal to build another nuclear plant when it can't get the two it's currently building finished.)

Mistigri · 30/10/2016 10:47

Mistigri I wonder about the role of degree subjects, too. I studied economic sciences, which are not considered scientific by many as a result of the 2008 crash. But there are no absolute truths in it, and professional scepticism is a must, which helps in these times.

I wonder also if premature post-16 and post-18 specialisation is a factor too - this might help to explain why climate denial is primarily an anglophone phenomenon. It is easy (for example - personal experience of the profile of graduate deniers) to find English speaking chemistry graduates who have, for example, done no physics or physical geography post GCSE, and to find highly qualified humanities specialists who are essentially innumerate. This happens much less in most of continental Europe where high school diplomas typically require students to study a range of subjects. Here in France for the most able students, specialisation occurs at age 20/21 not at age 16 (DD for example is looking at a post-18 course that will allow her to continue humanties, languages, social sciences and maths). It gives a much more balanced education to future decision makers and influencers.

ImpYCelyn · 30/10/2016 10:58

I also think that re degrees, humanities grads often get a bad press. Everyone assumes science grads understand better. But I think that with the sciences in particular they can have done Maths, Chem, Physics and Bio since 16, and as a result become quite blinkered within their own narrow specialism. Humanities grad (and I accept, so really do lack maths and science skills) have often remained a bit more open for longer, and almost always have overlap with other disciplines, and so are able to look at a bigger picture, and are used to reading a wide range of sources. I don't think they're better than science grads, but I think the playing field might be more level than people assume. Like Mistigri I've met some scientists with staggeringly uninformed views, and humanities grads with a very objective approach.

I also think that some French politicians do tend to be slightly better qualified to be politicians, with quite a chunk of them being ex civil servants and/or graduates of ENA (essentially a grad school for learning how to actually run bits of the country). They've at least been taught how the state actually functions. Not all. But a lot.

Mistigri · 30/10/2016 10:58

This is such a good idea. I'm convinced that allowing racist commentary to stand online without challenge makes others believe these repugnant views are acceptable.

Yes, I 100% agree with you.

I'm a believer in free speech, but also in personal responsibility. It's amazing how many racists hate being made to take ownership of their words. I was on a local FB group for expats here in France, and a local small business owner started spouting off about refugees - so I took a screenshot and posted it publicly on my timeline so it could be seen by potential clients. He was outraged.

jaws5 · 30/10/2016 11:00

I agree mistigri , as someone who did an European baccalaureate I find it shocking that perfectly possible for a student here to do just 1 maths, 2 English and 2 science GCSEs at 16. So many kids will stop studying history, geography and foreign language in y9 unless they are in a school that does the international baccalaureate. Not good enough for most, imo.

merrymouse · 30/10/2016 11:02

I thought that in the US they had to continue with maths and science through high school and as undergraduates?

Doesn't seem to have helped many of them with acceptance of things like evolution.

ImpYCelyn · 30/10/2016 11:04

I also agree with the Trollope quote about it being the line of the English to be dull. I teach a lot of sixth form, and it's staggering how little they read, and how little they want to. Even around their supposed university choice. It would be unthinkable in many countries (not just Europe) to so cheerfully profess your general ignorance. I used to have a form who were stunned that I could help them with their physics homework, or do maths examples on the board. And the last couple of years I've done a lot of personal statement support for the oxbridge and medical hopefuls, who are equally stunned when I can recommend books and articles for their various subjects. I'm a languages teacher and they think that's all I should know. The idea of reading on completely different subjects, just out of interest, is wholly alien to them. It's a culture we rapidly need to change.

merrymouse · 30/10/2016 11:08

I'm really not sure about France being particularly progressive given some of the things Sarkozy has said recently - far worse than anything I have heard from a British politician who wasn't in UKIP.

jaws5 · 30/10/2016 11:15

Consistently with previous polls, in the United States, acceptance of evolution was higher among respondents who were younger, with a higher level of household income, and with a higher level of education. Gender was not particularly important, however: the difference between male and female respondents in the United States was no more than 2%.
ncse.com/news/2011/04/polling-creationism-evolution-around-world-006634

This study contradicts the view that belief in creationism is not related to education. Of course it is!

ImpYCelyn · 30/10/2016 12:00

merrymouse I don't think the French are more progressive at all. Much more deeply entrenched xenophobia and homophobia just for starters.

But I do think they have more respect for education and the highly educated. And I do think their politicians have better understanding of how the state works, and what is required to keep it working.

Sadly none of that affects their close mindedness. I've heard some very well educated, well travelled people tell jokes that are frankly abhorrent. It's a joke among DHs family and friends that they have to avoid doing it in front of me as I will call them out on their bigotry. The fact they think they need a rule about avoiding me, but haven't actually reflected on the views that lead them to think jokes about gay people are funny, says it all. I'm just sooooo politically correct. Because comments about gay people spreading aids would belong in 2016 if it wasn't for my crazy PCness. Or the massive row I had with my BIL about why telling jokes about Jews being money grabbing is utterly despicable. Wanker.

TheNorthRemembers · 30/10/2016 12:03

The Daily Show (still) with Jon Stewart had a fun but quite scary clip a few years ago about the right wing public's view on experts. The interviewer was baiting people to make more and more outlandish claims and they came to the conclusion that anyone can do surgery and it should not be restricted to doctors. I'll have a look on YouTube.

ImpYCelyn · 30/10/2016 12:04

Sarkozy another wanker is actively trying to win voters from Marine. The main contender standing against him (in the same party) has publicly, and pointedly, said he won't pander to racists, he doesn't want their votes anyway. So points for more credibility, but not sure that'll work out for him in the first round. So we'll see how long he sticks to that.

Fawful · 30/10/2016 12:57

(RedToothBrush, as an aside, have you seen the work of Hack Brexit in providing 'acceleration' teams for tech solutions to advance a less divided Britain? Don't know if that sounds too abstract but it boils down to looking at how they could help you/us find a platform to reach more people of all views to share and confront ideas etc. There's a meet up today in London and I'm tempted to go, though I don't have a clear idea to discuss.)

ManonLescaut · 30/10/2016 14:01

I don't recognise your portrait of France Imp

It's definitely more racist, but I've never heard a French person talk and certainly not my husband's family, in the way you describe. And there are plenty of English people like that.

The UK, or rather England and Wales, beats anyone hands down for xenophobia surely. We've actually left Europe over it. A lot of British people, it turns out, hate Europe.

I find France more socially progressive. There's not such an extreme social inequality as in the UK. There's not the private/state education divide. There's much more respect for blue collar jobs, better workers' rights & protection (too much some might say), more generous welfare, much better social housing provision. There's no obsession with class, poshness & the bloody aristocracy.

I like the prioritisation of culture, intellect, arts over vulgar materialism - manifest in the attitude to the city. The UK is a very philistine country by comparison. But my husband would say France is more static, and that's true.

Lico · 30/10/2016 14:46

I think that the French are as racists as the British but perhaps not so xenophobic. Same as here, countryside is very racist. The big difference is that there are no tabloids such as Sun, Daily Mail or Daily Express which reinforce prejudices. I already posted this video weeks back - (for French speakers)

A 1960's French comedian , Fernand Raynaud, was famous for his show called 'I do not like foreigners. The show is a xenophobic rant about foreigners. At the end the foreigner leaves and guess what ?

Le Douanier
m.youtube.com/watch?v=ppzQ-dsdquI

Script
societe.aufeminin.com/forum/y-en-a-marre-des-etrangers-qui-viennent-manger-l-pain-des-francais-fd287010

ImpYCelyn · 30/10/2016 15:11

I don't want to sound like I'm hammering the French, because I actually love the French, and I love France. But...

I never hear throwaway homophobic comments in the UK from similarly level educated people like I do in France. The comments about AIDS came from a 38 year old engineer. Very Catholic, but still... And no one else challenged him on it. I regularly hear views about gay parents/gay adoption that I think are deeply offensive. Most recently from teachers about how their schools would "never allow those kind of people" (private, obviously). It's not just DH's family (and in his family it's his parents and one BIL, the others are fine), it's our neighbours, colleagues etc. I'm not drawing from a small pool. And it covers a big geographic range, Marseille, Paris, Angoulême, Rouen, Normandy countryside.

The UK might be more xenophobic re the EU, but better integrated than France when it comes to people from elsewhere. A neighbour recently confided that they're concerned about their childminder because she's Muslim. No other reason. He's educated to masters level and from Paris. She's married to a local guy and was born in France. He's not the only one to have expressed negativity towards her, some people won't talk to her at all. A family I've know since I was 8 have three boys - youngest takes after Dad and is tall and blond, older two look like Mum and are obviously of North African origins. Guess which two have been beaten up at school and get called names. Their own recruitment data shows the staggering discrimination against North Africans. Comments about Jewish people have been much like the homophobic ones - from people who know/work with/are friends with Jewish people, but tag a ridiculous stereotypical comment on to what they're saying about them, without seeing that it's a problem.

I also know people who won't put their children in certain schools because of the types of families there, again in Marseille and Normandy. I don't think concerns about class are non-existent, they're less prevalent though.

I'm not saying the UK is better. I prefer life in France. But I would argue against the idea that France is a progressive haven. I think that while tabloids aren't reinforcing their views, there's far less of a taboo about saying them out loud, and people are genuinely surprised if you challenge them.

Admittedly I'm from London and a particularly multi-cultural part, so have lived in a bubble, but I would expect Paris at least, if not Marseille as well, to be similar in attitude.

(I spent years as a child in France, my parents still live there, DH is French, all his family and friends are French, we've lived there, we still have our house there and are moving back in July, so I'm not just basing this on holidays.)

Mistigri · 30/10/2016 16:22

Re the French being more or less racist than the British - that wasn't my point at all.

My point was simply about educated people and the media in France feeling able to call out the racists in a very explicit way - what UK medium would dare reprint posts from its facebook page, and directly criticise their authors, by name?

In the UK this type of public naming and shaming is now only possible for anti-semitism. Other varieties of racism can be displayed in public without consequences (unless you cross the boundary into hate speech, but that is quite a high bar).

As it happens, I think that the British are or were generally less racist than the French - though it's important to say that the groups who are the main targets of French racism (North Africans) are different from the groups who were at least historically most subject to racism in the UK (black Africans particularly those from the Caribbean). It is a shame that the UK's recent history of tolerance is being destroyed.

ManonLescaut · 30/10/2016 16:27

I think we thought the UK was better integrated, but Brexit shows we were kidding ourselves... London is better integrated but it's almost a different country.

Ime, I'd say homophobia here is about the same as in England. I've not heard any from people I know - I think it depends a lot on the type.

My English BIL (sister's husband) is mildly racist and homophobic in a jolly public school kind of way. But I don't really hear that here.

ManonLescaut · 30/10/2016 16:32

^ That was to Imp

It is a shame that the UK's recent history of tolerance is being destroyed

It's slightly tragic. I look at Germany and think we can get it back eventually. But it took a world war and a hell of a long time.

Peregrina · 30/10/2016 16:35

Manon - how long would you say it took Germany to rehabilitate itself? IMO maybe twice as long as it took for the nazi ideology to gain a hold.

ImpYCelyn · 30/10/2016 16:37

In honesty, the majority of homophobia I hear is in Marseille. Much much less in Rouen and Paris. From Mediterranean Catholics with some very ingrained views about manliness and family life. But for their ages, level of education and how much they've seen of the world I find it really surprising. I definitely don't encounter that in London. They remind me of my grandad and he was an 80 year old Fail reader.

Elsewhere when i hear it its of the "I don't mind gay people, but..." variety. Gay people with children does seem to be a particular issue though.

ImpYCelyn · 30/10/2016 16:40

And by level of education I mean that generally people who've been to university have encountered a wide range of people outside of the circle they were brought up. They've normally broadened their horizons a bit.

ManonLescaut · 30/10/2016 17:00

I think London and Paris are comparable - there's less homophobia there than elsewhere in either country - although there have been horrible homophobic attacks in both. There's generally more tolerance of homosexuality in cities, but I wouldn't want to be gay in Glasgow for example, perhaps Marseille is similar.

RedToothBrush · 30/10/2016 17:07

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/37799805

No means no. Cultural differences.

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