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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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TheBathroomSink · 29/10/2016 20:43

I can't imagine why he'd want to stay tbh. He can't win at the moment, and whoever is Governor is going to take an enormous amount of flak for any changes which don't entirely conform to what the likes of Hannan and Rees-Mogg believe should be happening, and Rees-Mogg has got a bee in his bonnet about it, so he isn't going to stop nitpicking any time soon.

It's a thankless job at the best of times, and these are nowhere close to that!

RedToothBrush · 29/10/2016 20:48

Did someone post the guardian long read about the division being education yesterday and how this was more toxic than the gap between rich and poor? I forget. If no one has I'll try and find shortly.

Not been London in a while. Quite stunned at how much it's changed ( though I shouldn't really given the same in Manchester)

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ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 29/10/2016 20:54

Changed how, Red?

RedToothBrush · 29/10/2016 20:55

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theresa-facing-welfare-cuts-tory-9147701
Something new to rebel on. Even IDS saying planned cuts to universal credit go too far. I thought may was planning to help the needy. Oh wait it's the working poor she's appealing to...

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RedToothBrush · 29/10/2016 20:57

Lots of reasons. Will post more later... When can put thought to it.

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RedToothBrush · 29/10/2016 21:14

Our train home just got cancelled. It's 30 mins to the next one at least ( doctor called to platform... Rest of trains also cancelled). We are still out will toddler. And it Halloween on Monday so everyone is dressed up. It should be shit. Somehow it makes it funny.

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ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 29/10/2016 21:22

Hope you won't have to wait long and make it home OK.

Peregrina · 29/10/2016 21:26

Wasn't Carney initially appointed for 5 years, with an option of staying on for a further 3 after that? So the Bloomberg article isn't necessarily saying anything new.

WrongTrouser · 29/10/2016 21:36

I think this is the Long Read Red mentioned.

How the education gap is tearing politics apart | David Runciman

The Long Read: In the year of Trump and Brexit, education has become the greatest divide of all – splitting voters into two increasingly hostile camps. But this is not a clash between the ignorant and the enlightened

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/05/trump-brexit-education-gap-tearing-politics-apart

WrongTrouser · 29/10/2016 21:46

Very interesting article. Needs reading in full but just a couple of quotes for the flavour:

In the year of Trump and Brexit, it is tempting to think that democracy is reverting to type and that popular ignorance is once again being set against expert knowledge. Trump is what you get when demagoguery is allowed to run unchecked, egged on by a craven media that simply enjoys the show. Brexit is what you get if you ask people a question that they lack the basic information to answer. This is the view that has been doing the rounds in the circles in which the highly educated move. But to think this is a big mistake. The educational divide that is opening up in our politics is not really between knowledge and ignorance. It is a clash between one worldview and another

and

Educated v less educated may be even more toxic than rich v poor, because it comes laden with assumptions of moral superiority. These days the rich find it quite hard to get away with the presumption that their wealth is proof of their virtue. When they seek protection from the system, it is pretty clear what they are up to: they are looking after their interests. But when the educated look out for themselves they can dress it up as something ostensibly better than that: expertise

Interesting finding he quotes':

Possessing a university degree does not alter the probability of someone believing that global warming is a hoax – that tracks prior political commitments, not superior knowledge

WrongTrouser · 30/10/2016 00:41

I feel like I have gate-crashed your thread and now everyone else has left. SorryBlush Please feel free to ignore my posts.

BuntyFigglesworthSpiffington · 30/10/2016 00:52

I think it's just the time of the night Wrong. Smile I don't post much but do check the Westminsterenders thread daily for my Brexit news updates.

Invaluable service!

SummerLightning · 30/10/2016 01:08

wrong it's the middle of the night! Summary was great thanks, from another lurker (in another timezone)

Mistigri · 30/10/2016 06:15

Possessing a university degree does not alter the probability of someone believing that global warming is a hoax – that tracks prior political commitments, not superior knowledge

It would be interesting to to know whether what you studied is a factor. (I'd go with "not necessarily", since I know at least two doctors of chemistry who are deniers ... but I wonder if there is any actual data).

On the subject of the press, it's very interesting to watch from a distance. French press and TV is very different especially in their approaches to difficult, technical subjects - there is much less use of "false balance", and much greater use of academics and experts who - because of the way the education system works here (much later specialisation) - often have a very nuanced, global view of complex issues.

Another thing that has immensely cheered me in the last few days is that the French press has decided to name and shame racist commentary about migrants on their below the line/ facebook pages. The explicit message is that free speech is a right, but those who exercise that right must take responsibilty for their words. One media outlet reprinted and explicitly criticised posts to its facebook page with no anonymity given to the authors. I applaud them.

Mistigri · 30/10/2016 06:30

"Just-managing" families set to be worse off:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/29/theresa-may-just-managing-families-worse-off-brexit

Key take aways: a low-wage family with two working parents and two toddlers will lose £2k by 2020, a working single parent could lose nearly twice that ... Devastating if correct.

Chancellor's room for manoeuvre must be hampered by the triple lock: 3-4% inflation means a massive increase in the pensions bill, which in turn makes increasing benefits elsewhere (or even reducing cuts) more difficult.

GloriaGaynor · 30/10/2016 07:32

there is much less use of "false balance", and much greater use of academics and experts who - because of the way the education system works here (much later specialisation) - often have a very nuanced, global view of complex issues

And culturally, there's a lot more respect for 'intellectuals'.

As Trollope said: 'it's the line of the French to be clever, it's the line of the English to be dull'.

TheNorthRemembers · 30/10/2016 09:54

WrongTrousers Another thanks from me.

Mistigri I wonder about the role of degree subjects, too. I studied economic sciences, which are not considered scientific by many as a result of the 2008 crash. But there are no absolute truths in it, and professional scepticism is a must, which helps in these times.

jaws5 · 30/10/2016 10:06

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/30/theresa-may-brexit-parliamentary-vote
One of the problems right now, is that the people in charge are so obviously clueless. These are the same people who jumped on the anti-expert bandwagon that helped them win a ridiculous referendum. I think that in France and other EU countries, this level of ignorance from the people in charge would be simply unthinkable and unacceptable.

jaws5 · 30/10/2016 10:10

And William Keegan points out, as has been mentioned many times in these threads, that the political and intellectual stature of the politicians in charge of Brexit simply is unacceptably low. I don't understand why Leave voters keep saying it will be fine, and are not up in arms about this.

jaws5 · 30/10/2016 10:18

Nick Cohen's opinion piece in The Guardian today. When a new PM is regularly called a liar by usually moderate commentators, one could assume she's in trouble.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/30/theresa-may-lie-and-lied-to-become-prime-minister

lalalonglegs · 30/10/2016 10:30

jaws5 - I think that this isn't just a British phenomenon and you flatter our European neighbours by saying that they wouldn't tolerate such nonsense. Look at Silvio Berlusconi, in charge of Italy for years with the slogan "Forza Italia!" - every bit as meaningless as Brexit means Brexit. Look at the rhetoric of Viktor Orban in Hungary. Look at the rise (and potential victory) of the far-right Freedom Party in Austria, AfD in Germany or Marine Le Pen in France. The British are really good at beating themselves up about their own failings but the shock for many of my Italian friends at least wasn't that there was a right-wing, anti-EU coup somewhere in Europe but that it happened in the UK, a country that they have always regarded as tolerant, pragmatic and, above all, sensible Sad.

lalalonglegs · 30/10/2016 10:31

I do agree that the people in charge are clueless though Smile.

ManonLescaut · 30/10/2016 10:42

Carney's not going serve the full 8 years until '21.

As Blanchflower observed, he's 'the only adult in the room'. I was hoping that he might cling on.

What will we get as a replacement?

jaws5 · 30/10/2016 10:44

lala yes, Berlusconi was disgraceful and we all laughed at him thinking it couldn't happen here, France, Hungary and other countries also have worrying trends and embarrassing figures. But public knowledge and participation in EU processes and institutions is higher than here, it has always been, therefore in the UK false stories about the evils of the EU have kept the Express in print for decades, for example, without that false information being challenged by basic knowledge of the EU. Now Davis and Fox display shocking ignorance of the matter in (their) hand and their voters are not up in arms because they have never understood the EU themselves. Look at the low turn out for EU parliamentary elections in the UK compared to most countries
www.europarl.europa.eu/elections2014-results/en/turnout.html

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