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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
ImpYCelyn · 30/10/2016 17:24

Good article!

ManonLescaut · 30/10/2016 19:06

I think no tends to mean no in the north of England.

A northerner once offered me a lift to the tube station after a meeting, and I said 'Oh no don't worry, I wouldn't want to put you to trouble' in my very naicely brought up English way.

And so he said 'Oh ok' & walked off.

What could I say? 'When I said no I didn't mean it'?

PattyPenguin · 30/10/2016 20:58

There was a whole list of things British people say which non-British people misunderstand doing the rounds last year. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/chart-shows-what-british-people-say-what-they-really-mean-and-what-others-understand-a6730046.html

And of course it keeps Very British Problems going ad infinitum.

But there is a serious point here.

Peregrina · 31/10/2016 07:33

Extraordinary indeed. Although I am not Jewish, it would be the sort of action my DF would have approved of i.e. keep as many options open as possible. I saw, I think it was a 'Who do you think you are' programme, where someone had passed up an easyish opportunity to get Swiss(?) citizenship. They did eventually manage to get of Nazi Germany, but with difficulty.

Of course, a Leaver will soon be on saying 'Project Fear, not like Nazi Germany', and no, it's not yet, but it all started insidiously in Germany.

Nightofthetentacle · 31/10/2016 08:55

If I may proffer some good news - or in fact, confirm the absence of bad news:

Mark Carney is staying on as BoE Governor for his full term - follows report in Saturday's Times that he was going to announce his resignation this week. 3 more years! etc.

Confirmation from the FT: www.ft.com/content/5107a124-9eb5-11e6-891e-abe238dee8e2

Carney's 'friends' appear to be a chatty bunch - today's FT story from "friends", and the (Saturday) Times report included this "They said he has grown disillusioned with the populist thrust of Theresa May’s plans and has been bruised by Eurosceptic criticism of his “Project Fear” warnings during the European Union referendum campaign.

One friend said: “I don’t think he’s been overly impressed by the professionalism of No 10.”

Quite.

ManonLescaut · 31/10/2016 09:20

Yes I saw that. Great news, assuming he's not pushed...

twofingerstoGideon · 31/10/2016 10:48

Raheem Kassam withdraws from UKIP leadership race

Peregrina · 31/10/2016 10:50

Still you have to admit that UKIP is a bit of an irrelevance now, since the Tory party have completely espoused their ideology.

twofingerstoGideon · 31/10/2016 10:52

You would like to think so, but NF still gets plenty of airtime and the party shows no signs of fucking off, despite its relatively poor showing in local elections.

SapphireStrange · 31/10/2016 11:27

I wouldn't want to be gay in Glasgow for example

I must disagree with that. I lived in Glasgow for years and still have friends there. Cliche alert –most of my best friends in Glasgow were/are gay. Mostly men but some women. There was and is a great gay scene, as well as largely, IME, harmonious integration between gay and straight people.

TBH the only prejudice and nasty comments I witnessed or was the target of in my time there were against the English (which is sad and angering in itself, I know), not homophobic, or racist or anything else.

RBeer · 31/10/2016 11:30

Raheen figured out that he was blek.

But you're Blek.

TrumpsFluffyHair · 31/10/2016 11:43

Glasgow is one of the most gay friendly cities in the UK!

TrumpsFluffyHair · 31/10/2016 11:50

It's also the vegan capital of the UK which I'm sure would surprise some.

prettybird · 31/10/2016 12:27

I'm in Glasgow too and have quite a few friends who happen to be gay or who are parents to gay children. Not aware of them ever having problems - but there again, I seem to live in a wee bubble of Yes supporters and Remain voters (including a lot of English and other nationalities Wink) and have never seen or come across anything nasty or untoward except the Orange Walks during marching season so I will accept I might not have the full picture. Grin

Came across more prejudice when I worked in Welwyn Garden City and later in Hull (albeit a loooooong time ago Blush)

ManonLescaut · 31/10/2016 13:11

I really like Glasgow as a city, but a gay friend of mine was hospitalised after being attacked with a concrete post. Clearly homophobic attacks can happen anywhere, but he had other friends had quite significant problems with homophobia, some at work.

A 2015 survey by the Scotsman indicated that gay Scots in general still face widespread prejudice in everyday life. Which is odd given that Scotland paved the way on gay marriage and was the first part of the UK to repeal section 28.

"Incidents reported by LGBT people ranged from homophobic, biphobic and transphobic comments and attitudes (82 per cent), to verbal abuse (68 per cent), physical attack (16 per cent) sexual assault (7 per cent), crimes against property (12 per cent), and discriminatory treatment when accessing services (25 per cent) and in employment (24 per cent)"

Scotsman: gay Scots still facing prejudice and inequality

Rhona Cameron: Scotland once led the way on gay rights

I proper love Scotland, so I have no axe to grind.

lalalonglegs · 31/10/2016 13:16

I'm not sure which bit you were looking at jaws but the latest update loaded as I clicked on the link and it was a bit grim Sad

Analysts at Bank of America Merrill Lynch fear that the row over Mark Carney’s future may have caused long-term damage to Britain’s reputation in the markets.

They suspect international investors may still be wary of UK assets, even if the governor announces he’ll stay on until 2021.They say:

At this stage we are not sure even Carney extending his contract would eliminate the extra policy uncertainty: it may be tricky to undo the impression markets have already formed.

Unsurprisingly, they're not keen on factions within a government trying to force out an independent bank governor

jaws5 · 31/10/2016 13:19

you are right lala, just seen this,

^The pound continues to dip, and is now down 0.2% today at $1.215.
BAML: The damage is done....^

Analysts at Bank of America Merrill Lynch fear that the row over Mark Carney’s future may have caused long-term damage to Britain’s reputation in the markets.

jaws5 · 31/10/2016 13:20

Nevermind, some are celebrating the triumph that is Brexit in the pub thread... Sad

squoosh · 31/10/2016 13:22

No doubt gay people in Scotland still face prejudice from some quarters. And I'm sure homophobic attacks take place here, as they do in every other UK city. Glasgow is certainly no utopia but I'd agree that Glasgow is definitely one of the more gay friendly UK cities. I've really noticed in the past year or so how many more same sex couples you see walking down the street holding hands.

lalalonglegs · 31/10/2016 13:26

I'm avoiding the pub thread, the discussions there suggest that they only serve absinthe...

jaws5 · 31/10/2016 13:31

lala, and a variety of psychoactive drugs, only explanation for celebration and total lack of factual information...

Mistigri · 31/10/2016 13:43

Nevermind, some are celebrating the triumph that is Brexit in the pub thread... sad

It doesnt really matter though does it? Free speech and all that.

The final judgement on the "Brexit cake" will depend on whether the end result is fluffy, light and delicious, or sunken, soggy and inedible. At the moment we don't even know what the recipe is ( except that it includes added sweeteners for car companies who have no intention of being put on a brexit diet).

prettybird · 31/10/2016 13:59

Don't you know? The Brexit Pub serves everlasting cake! Grin