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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

OP posts:
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Mistigri · 28/10/2016 20:26

Can somebody please spell it out for me: What implications for Brexit do the Richmond and Witney by-elections have?

None really.

If the Lib Dems win Richmond it reduces May's already slim majority, which is politically inconvenient, but I'm not sure this matters very much as far as Brexit concerned: it is clear that Labour MPs are, for the most part, not prepared to endanger their seats by making a pro-EU stand.

It might become a little more significant if the opposing parties could agree a single pro-EU candidate - but I would be absolutely astonished if this were to happen.

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2016 21:05

Mandate. It brings in question Mays authority. It also means it's one seat harder to get things through parliament. It raises questions about what will happen at a ge and therefore might influence policy to a degree by being less hard line to reduce centre haemorrhage. The Westminster polling looks a lot better than local election results have proved. Yes it is a very different thing but the political landscape has changed and this makes it more difficult t predict - strange things might happen that are not expected and this unnerves strategists.

It also proves to the electorate that the lds are worth voting for as an option rather than a wasted vote (which might have a knock on boost to national polling in people who have written off the lds)

OP posts:
TheElementsSong · 28/10/2016 21:58

Cost of tea might be going up.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37799701

Black tea is a global commodity, traded in dollars. Following the fall in sterling since the Brexit vote, costs have soared for this renowned brand as 95% of its sales are in the UK.

Peregrina · 28/10/2016 22:17

But Andrea Leasdom said that we were going to be exporting tea, I thought?

TheBathroomSink · 28/10/2016 22:32

She did peregrina but don't forget, we're still waiting for the unicorns she promised, so I'm not sure she's entirely to be trusted... Halloween Wink

Corcory · 28/10/2016 22:32

They've started growing tea in Northern Ireland maybe that's what she means!
Butter still 85p in Asda Elements. Far too cheap and obviously a lost leader as it was never this cheap. Poor dairy farmers.

TheElementsSong · 28/10/2016 22:56

Might have to make a trip to Asda just for the butter!

Motheroffourdragons · 28/10/2016 23:44

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Peregrina · 29/10/2016 09:34

A tax expert Richard Murphy, is asking some pertinent questions about what exactly is going on with Nissan.

He concludes, and I think we would all agree,
I want jobs in Sunderland, of course. But transparency is vital in the current environment. No one is suggesting Nissan are doing anything wrong, but the government needs to explain what is happening. And soon.

One of the comments says:

Yet another advantage has been handed to the EU team in our Brexit trade negotiations: “Conclude the issue of illegal aid to motor manufacturers with a one-off exit payment or we take it to the WTO as a pre-empting dispute that block all agreements on automotive trade”
I wonder what Toyota, Honda, Tata, Ford and BMW are doing right now. The laughably inept negotiators of Team Brexit may well have walked themseves – and us – into a blackmailers’ auction.

It's difficult not to agree with the last 4 words.

jaws5 · 29/10/2016 10:33

peregrina, that Richard Murphy article on Nissan shows that this is very unlikely to be a "cunning plan" and the only explanations (tax/cash or SM) show a government out of their depth, also this secretive policy cannot continue indefinitely. Yes, great that those jobs will continue to exist for now, but now what? It's surprising how quiet Leave supporters are about the many questions this rises.

Peregrina · 29/10/2016 10:43

So far Leave supporters have been goading some of us on another thread for wanting Nissan to pull out, which hasn't been the case, but that has been the sum total of their contribution.

jaws5 · 29/10/2016 10:49

I asked our old family friend, Tory Leaver, what he thinks Nissan means, his only answer was to again accusse me and my partner of being racist against non-EU migration, analysing the news too much and being EU fanatics. He reckons Nissan haven't been promised anything.

jaws5 · 29/10/2016 10:52

They are losing the argument and they know it.

Peregrina · 29/10/2016 10:59

I can't believe that Nissan wasn't promised something. I just don't think a hard-headed business like that would make a business decision because they felt like being nice to us. Whether whatever has been promised can be guaranteed is another matter. I find it annoying that Nissan bosses can be told, but MPs can't. Didn't we vote Leave to 'take back control' and regain 'sovereignity'?

jaws5 · 29/10/2016 11:18

Exactly peregrina but they seem to inhabit a parallel universe in which accountability suddenly does not matter.

SwedishEdith · 29/10/2016 11:25

"analysing the news too much"

God, that's why this country/the world is in such a mess - people aren't analysing the news enough. I know people who don't watch the news any more because "it's too depressing."

BlueEyeshadow · 29/10/2016 11:31

I'm one of those who stopped watching the news/listening to radio 4, Swedish. It was seriously affecting my mental health to see the world going to he'll in a handcart and suffering constant impotent rage. I find this thread much more use for keeping up with events.

SwedishEdith · 29/10/2016 11:33

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/08/mapped-how-britain-has-the-highest-level-of-skilled-migration-in/

'Mapped: How Britain has the most university educated migrants in the EU'. Interesting.

SwedishEdith · 29/10/2016 11:39

Well, yes, I can understand that Blue - I stopped listening to R4 in the morning years ago for the same reason. But you're not disengaged with the news, just managing how you receive it. I'm referring to people who opt out of information all together.

twofingerstoGideon · 29/10/2016 12:11

So far Leave supporters have been goading some of us on another thread for wanting Nissan to pull out, which hasn't been the case, but that has been the sum total of their contribution.
I agree. I'm not one to shout 'bullying', but that thread became very unpleasant last night.

twofingerstoGideon · 29/10/2016 12:26

God, that's why this country/the world is in such a mess - people aren't analysing the news enough. I know people who don't watch the news any more because "it's too depressing."
I'm another who tries to have 'news holidays' sometimes because I fear for my mental health. I think the issue is one of obvious bias. We either have outrightly biased print press - thinking especially here of Mail and Express with their appalling anti-immigrant headlines - or a BBC that claims to be 'balanced' but achieves this by giving airtime to outright liars. This John Simpson statement was interesting I thought
Only the most hardened Brexit voter could have watched the QT from Hartlepool and not been depressed at the awful behaviour of the audience and some panel members. It's almost as though news programmes are deliberately being pitched to deliberately make people angry and frustrated - probably all in the name of entertainment/pursuit of viewing figures.

ToujeoQueen · 29/10/2016 13:44

I agree two, the Hartlepool QT was very nasty indeed.

iwanttoridemybicycle · 29/10/2016 13:47

So true twofingers. The only source of news for many (including my parents) is the Fail and the express, which I find so depressing. These are intelligent people yet they don't understand they are being brainwashed and the resulting lack of humanity caused by the brainwashing astounds and saddens me. It leaves you feeling hopeless.

EmilyAlice · 29/10/2016 16:11

It is shocking isn't it. I remember during the campaign someone on another forum said that it should be a gut decision not something to think about. That shocked me to the core. Felt like a denial of everything I believe in.
I also think people don't realise how they have been brainwashed by the papers over the years. I am old enough to have voted last time and no way did I think I was only voting for a trading union. That notion is just something else that the press have been pushing over the years.
Those of us who thought about it knew what it meant then as much as we did this time round. All of my friends voted in / remain both times.
I do get a bit fed up with the view that the proportion of my generation voting leave is just about their age though. It is still education that is the biggest difference between remain and leave voters.

ManonLescaut · 29/10/2016 16:26

Oh God it's looking like Carney might go in 2018.

www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-10-28/bank-of-england-s-mark-carney-prepares-his-own-brexit

"I don’t want to bind … (long pause) … the Bank of England two years’ hence."

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