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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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Thread gallery
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prettybird · 28/10/2016 11:24

A bit of fantasy which would all these issues irrelevant Grin

....just let England leave the UK and then it can follow through on "Brexit means Brexit" choose to leave the EU, as a new state called..... "England" Wink

http://www.euroweeklynews.com/3.0.15/news/on-euro-weekly-news/uk-news/141726-why-doesn%E2%80%99t-england-just-leave-the-uk#.WBL4qzEN1EA.twitter

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2016 11:43

Richmond Park, constituency poll:
Z. Goldsmith (IND): 56%
S. Olney (LDEM): 29%
(via BMG, phone / 26 - 27 Oct)

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Nightofthetentacle · 28/10/2016 11:44

Grin prettybird

Peregrina · 28/10/2016 11:45

I believe that the LibDems haven't officially chosen their candidate yet. The procedure for choosing one for a General Election is apparently not the same as choosing for a by election.

HesterThrale · 28/10/2016 11:50

Yes prettybird, a good idea! Very similar to the one I posted back in the summer: 'Let's have a referendum to vote on whether we want to leave the UK so we can leave the EU. The UK is, and remains, a member...you have to vote out of it to leave the EU.'
Only trouble is, Scotland, NI, Gibraltar, and possibly Wales now, would vote to stay. But if a majority in England voted to leave, people in London, Brighton and other cities would be very sore. You can't really keep subdividing down to small communities and give them all what they want.

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2016 11:54

I thought that they had confirmed it was olney. Can't say she's my cup of tea. Mark Elliott is pointing out passage of ni case central to the English case - that triggering a50 does not change the constitution or law the day after. However Elliott contends is still relevant as triggering it could still change rights without an act of parliament so therefore believes English (and ni) challenge not dead

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SwedishEdith · 28/10/2016 11:56

Exactly Hester, it's the sub-dividing that's creating this mess in the first place.

SwedishEdith · 28/10/2016 12:00

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 2m2 minutes ago
Richmond Park, most important issue:
Brexit: 25%
Local MP's record: 22%
Heathrow expansion: 21%
(via BMG)

Still all to campaign for.

CeciledeVolanges · 28/10/2016 12:04

But Elliott plus Finnis = challenge basically dead

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 28/10/2016 12:08

That doesn't make sense, Britain Ekects issues.

If Brexit is the leading issue then Goldsmith won't have a chance, because he is pro Brexit and the constituency was very much Remain, yet in the other poll he leads with over 50%.

CeciledeVolanges · 28/10/2016 12:09

OK well I am going to blog about this one, will refer to Mark Elliott's opinion and try to make it as comprehensible as possible and will link here in case anyone is interested.

SwedishEdith · 28/10/2016 12:13

I suppose it depends on the question. Some people might not have actually joined up the issues with the candidates yet. And some vote party over anything even if they say a particular issue matters to them. You could argue that applies to anyone who voted tory at last election but wanted to stay in EU - they voted for a referendum.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 28/10/2016 12:29

I doubt they that they don't connect the candidate with the issues.
Goldsmith is the current MP and his views are well known, don't forget he ran for Mayor too, so he's hardly an unknown quantity.

HesterThrale · 28/10/2016 12:29

Exactly, RTB I couldn't agree more:
People do take our human rights and peace for granted and its only when you come face to face with the possibility of insecurity that I think you can really understand. Freedom of Movement is a big part of that peace and security by getting people to realise that others are human not just foreigners.

We've been lucky in this country to live through a period of comparative prosperity, human rights and peace. I've recently thought about what it might be like to want to leave, or encourage your own children to leave, your country of birth. If things got really bad here. If there were a better political situation and prospects elsewhere. (Sounds dramatic, I know, but the Overton window has already shifted a lot, just this year.) It has given me the tiniest recognition of what it must feel like to live in an insecure or turbulent nation.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 28/10/2016 12:31

Also, LibDems are traditionally strong there, so it's not the case of people voting blindly for the Conservatives.

No, something in the polls is off.

LurkingHusband · 28/10/2016 12:35

Daily Mail is talking about introducing ID cards today

You really know you have passed through the looking-glass when the most right-wing tabloid in the universe is advocating those nasty, unBritish, "continental" ID cards Shock

Given the clusterfuck that surrounded them 2005-2010, I'm surprised there isn't more noise.

I have no problem with ID cards - they would be a ing boon in some cases. I have every problem with the law which comes in ettaseconds after them which require you to carry one, or go to jail.

"Papers please." is a spine-chilling phrase, with extremely dark echoes of history.

TheBathroomSink · 28/10/2016 12:38

I think that the exact phrasing of the question might factor into the RP poll - was it about reversing Brexit or about how it is handled, in which case Goldsmith as an MP for the party in Government might been seen as a more influential choice? RP isn't true-blue Tory, it was LD until Goldsmith so is it possible that he's just seen as effective locally?

whatwouldrondo · 28/10/2016 12:40

That local poll basically ties up with the votes cast in the wards that make up the constituency in the mayoral election, with Zac / Sadiq basically 60/30 even with a racist campaign. The voters are after all, as well as being educated and cosmopolitan, conservative in the Cameronite mould. This is as much Farrow and Ball (or whatever other designer paint brand specialising in greige) land as Witney. They will be impressed he has taken a stance and feelings are running very high on Heathrow. However how that plays out once his Brexit views are forced out into the open is another matter.

Peregrina · 28/10/2016 12:44

I would have thought it was a bit less true blue than Witney - more like an Oxford West and Abingdon - blue at present, could go back to Orange. Highly unlikely ever to go Red.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 28/10/2016 12:49

What I'm saying is that this

Richmond Park, constituency poll:
Z. Goldsmith (IND): 56%
S. Olney (LDEM): 29%
(via BMG, phone / 26 - 27 Oct)

doesn't tie with this.

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 2m2 minutes ago
Richmond Park, most important issue:
Brexit: 25%
Local MP's record: 22%
Heathrow expansion: 21%
(via BMG)

We'll have to wait and see.

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2016 13:07

So basically the government have been given via blogs the argument to make to kill a50 challenge.

By all accounts the standard is supporting goldsmith. I agree those figures on polling don't add up. I was running through the figures last night and how they might pan out in terms of a swing compared to last two elections and EU ref. They need a 19.2% swing. The poll only has 10%. Accounting for turnout I can't see it being less than 15...

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SwedishEdith · 28/10/2016 13:08

If that poll is saying Brexit is most important issue for 25% of constituents (and I'm not entirely sure what it is saying) then it's not really off. As ZG fits with the other criteria. I think it's too early to tell.

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2016 13:31

I think Richmond will be tight

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merrymouse · 28/10/2016 13:36

School places were a big issue locally. When ZG got in, plans for new schools were cancelled as part of scrapping of Schools for the Future.

A new secondary has now been built in North Kingston, but I don't know how much credit ZM has received for this - given pupil numbers the argument for a new school was pretty overwhelming.

merrymouse · 28/10/2016 13:44

www.zacgoldsmith.com/campaigns/

These are his campaigns - they seem to vary from very, very local (bank in highstreet, bookshop planning permission), to only tenuously connected to his constituents.

Maybe more will become clear when the website is complete.

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