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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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Thread gallery
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RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 23:45

Quiet night for by-elections tonight. Only 3.

One result in so far.

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 4m
4 minutes ago

Collington (Rother) result:
IND: 60.0% (+60.0)
CON: 28.8% (+7.1)
LAB: 6.4% (+0.1)
UKIP: 4.8% (-4.5)

Ind gain from Ind.

Not that interesting really, apart from seeing the Kipper vote going down which the Cons seem to benefit.

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RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 23:55

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects
Darwell (Rother) result:
CON: 43.5% (+1.9)
LDEM: 31.4% (+14.8)
LAB: 9.6% (-0.6)
GRN: 8.4% (-6.6)
UKIP: 7.3% (-9.5)

CON hold.

Looks like a bit of a shuffling to the centre. Green go LD. UKIP go Con. Con go LD.

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HesterThrale · 28/10/2016 08:47

While we seem to hold the economic arguments as primary, we mustn't lose sight of the original reason for creating a united Europe. In the last minute of this newsreel, Churchill talks about union and peace in 'Europe as a whole'. How can right-wingers, who often hark back to the glory days of the past, ignore Churchill's dream?
I fear that if we willingly splinter ourselves off from this union, we place ourselves in an isolationist position where we'll be ignored, or worse. Noble postwar aims should not be forgotten. We today take peace and unity for granted, but we shouldn't. The alternative could be a whisker away. I'd hate to look back ten years hence and regret Brexit for peace and security reasons, as well as economic ones.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=VvPd3nYU2Tc

merrymouse · 28/10/2016 08:57

Clark indicated there had been no offer of financial compensation or state aid. “There’s no cheque book. I don’t have a cheque book,”

And the government definitely, unambiguously, did not pay Nissan in shillings, or goats either!

(As far as I can see nobody has yet confirmed or denied the possibility of a strategic marriage between heirs of the British and Japanese royal families.)

Probably the Japanese just like the weather in Sunderland.

whatwouldrondo · 28/10/2016 09:07

Hester How can right-wingers, who often hark back to the glory days of the past, ignore Churchill's dream? Because they had another shuffling old fashioned British eccentric with oratory skills telling them that turning their back on the EU was going to be "glorious"?

I am quite sure that Boris quite consciously seeks to project a Churchillian image.

Peregrina · 28/10/2016 09:22

Churchill gave out mixed messages though - he saw a role for the Empire/Commonwealth. Some people now are harking back to a bigger role for this, although personally I suspect it's only certain parts of the Commonwealth which interest them.

Maybe if we had lost our Empire sooner, we might have been more ready to throw in our lot with the rest of W Europe and really try to make a go of the relationship, rather than this 'shall we, shan't we' type relationship we have had.

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2016 09:47

HesterThrale, absolutely.

Northern Ireland was my primary reason for voting Remain. People do take our human rights and peace for granted and its only when you come face to face with the possibility of insecurity that I think you can really understand. Freedom of Movement is a big part of that peace and security by getting people to realise that others are human not just foreigners.

Its just that the economic argument is easier to quantify and to explain to people. A history lesson doesn't touch people in the same way.

Anyway:
Conor James McKinney ‏@mckinneytweets
A note in @timesredbox says that there will be a decision in the Northern Irish challenge to government triggering Article 50 at 10am today.

I am nervous. Very nervous. And I'm awol from my computer for the weekend from just after 10am (may be about on my phone but not a huge amount until Monday)

www.ft.com/content/d8d9b9be-9c64-11e6-8324-be63473ce146
Special visa schemes for regions rejected
Minister dismisses different immigration rules for Scotland

In a statement to the UK parliament’s Scottish affairs committee, Robert Goodwill, UK immigration minister, said that a “single policy of migration for employment” worked across the UK.

“Applying different immigration rules to different parts of the UK would complicate the immigration system, harming its integrity, and cause difficulties for employers with a presence in more than one part of the UK,” he said.

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes
What did government say to Nissan - today's reports 1/3: The Times

Ministers were forced to give a last minute written promise to protect Nissan from the consequences of Brexit before the carmaker agreed to keep investing in the UK, The Times has learnt.

Nissan announced yesterday that it would build two new car models at its Sunderland plant, securing thousands of jobs. Downing Street denied that it had made a sweetheart deal or offered state aid.

Greg Clark the business secretary is understood to have written to the board of the Japanese company pledging to ensure that its UK operations "remain competitive" after Britain pulls out of the European Union. The letter came after a stand-off when Nissan warned the government tat it could not invest in Britain unless it received high-level written guarantees about future trading conditions.

Mr Clark's letter is regarded by Nissan as a promise that it will not have to bear the cost of punitive tariffs on car exports if Britain leaves the EU customs area without a free trade agreement in place

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes
2/3 The Financial Times on the Nissan offer

But the news would not have been possible without the assurances of Theresa May, given during her meeting with the Nissan chief, that the company would face no changes in its trading condition following Brexit.

Exactly how the prime minister will do this - through compensation for tariffs or exemptions from trade barriers for the entire UK-based motor industry - was not specified. Mr Ghosn was only promised there were several "levers" the government could pull, according to someone with knowledge of the talks

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes
3/3 Reuters on the Nissan - govt talks

Britain has given Nissan a written commitment of extra support in the event that Brexit reduces the competitiveness of its Sunderland plant, in return for new production investments by the Japanese carmaker, a source with knowledge of the matter told Reuters.

In addition to unconditional investment aid, Britain pledged in a letter to offer further relief if the terms of Britain's European Union exit ended up harming the plant's performance, the source said.

Something is getting lost in translation. If it goes tits up, the government will be in hot water as whatever they said perhaps suggests they promised rather more than they intended. This, once again, suggests desperation and a degree of incompetent.

Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes
Gvt treading wobbly line betwn hint, assurance, promise & guarantee: why keeping assurance vague ("high level") key

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/18e1dcda-9c83-11e6-b375-620558266136
A wobble by Nissan and frantic calls to Japan . . . how the car deal was settled

www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/nissan-brexit-and-industrial-strategy#.WBMOeYWcHIV
Nissan, Brexit and "industrial strategy"

Blog piece on Nissan.

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham
A 56% decline! Remember, the official data was very slow to catch the financial crisis too.

One of Europe's largest engineering groups has sounded an alarm over Brexit after UK orders halved following the referendum vote.

ABB, which employs more than 3,000 people in Britain and has roles in HS1 and the grid connection for Europe's largest tidal project, blamed Brexit for a 56 per cent decline in orders in Britain.

Ulrich Spiesshofer, chief executive, said: "Brexit had a massive dampening effect." UK customers are delaying decision while the impact of the referendum vote becomes clear, and he said; "The overall market is not totally broken... but short term there is definitely a dampening effect."

No wonder the government were panicking over Nissan. It might have become apparent that there was a problem which would screw Brexit.

Daily Mail is talking about introducing ID cards today. This fills me with horror. Horrid things that take away liberty. (Has certain implications particularly in NI...)

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RedToothBrush · 28/10/2016 09:55

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB
BMG has a Richmond Park constituency poll coming out. Brave given the performance of single seat polls at GE2015

Should come up on www2.politicalbetting.com/ shortly then.

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CeciledeVolanges · 28/10/2016 10:04

Hester I agree, although I think the goals of Monnet et al were to "make war impossible" through economic interdependence. Which I am totally behind. I don't think our net contribution is a bad thing either.

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2016 10:05

Vince Cable ‏@vincecable
#Nissan agreement good news but only possible if government promised to protect supplychain via customs union. Goodbye Dr Fox #Brexit

I wish I was as confident as he is.

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Understand Northern Ireland Article 50 judgment will be published at @JudiciaryNI

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Figmentofmyimagination · 28/10/2016 10:11

Ukip pledges support for Zak goldsmith. Just the sort of support you would rather not have. I wonder whether it will turn more wavering Tories away from him - even if they just abstain.

jaws5 · 28/10/2016 10:18

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/28/tony-blair-remain-voters-to-mobilise-against-brexit
Have you seen this? If only Blair had some credibility left...

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2016 10:23

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects
Rhyl West (D'shire) result:
LAB: 48.0% (-2.4) HOLD
CON: 22.4% (+8.3)
IND (Shone): 13.3% (+13.3)
IND (Webster): 10.1% (+10.1)
LD: 6.3% (+6.3)

Final one from last night.

Claire McCann ‏@clumperino
Judge going over grounds for JR - the role of RP power and NI Act; AoP required for triggering art 50; equality impact assessment and Notification u/art 50: govt says prerogative ; applicants say power displaced by statute. Specifically NI Act 1998. Q about how the principle will operate in this case. What test? And how to apply it re. Displacing provisions?

Live tweeting from NI judgement ^

Claire McCann ‏@clumperino
Arrives at opinion re test. Series of factors and no bright line. Q comes down to whether the statute occupies specific ground of prerog
There is no express provision to limit exec; is there necessary implication?
What occurs at triggering of art 50 is not the same thing that will happen after triggering of art 50.

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RedToothBrush · 28/10/2016 10:26

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham
Sounding like the Government has succeeded in Belfast

Claire McCann ‏@clumperino
The Northern Ireland Act is about creating new institutions not about limitation of powers. It's an overstatement to say that art 50 wd
Change the constitutional make up on NI. All the institutions will continue to function. There is uncertainty.
Court not persuaded that NI Act has chased prerogative from the field. Exec still holds power to trigger art 50

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RedToothBrush · 28/10/2016 10:28

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham
And there you have it. Approached as a question of statutory construction the Government can trigger Article 50 via the Royal Prerogative.

Claire McCann ‏@clumperino
Now moves on to whether an Act of Parliament is required.

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lalalonglegs · 28/10/2016 10:30

Bugger! Sad

Nightofthetentacle · 28/10/2016 10:31

Bugger indeed.

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2016 10:33

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham
Before the HC in London, the core question seemed to me to be whether it was right to approach the question as one of statutory construction
Sounds like people's challenge does not bond well....

Claire McCann ‏@clumperino
If UK Parliament legislated on art 50.2 this would be an excepted matter therefore not governed by consent requirement.
Court is focusing on polycentricity of assessment of the government in relation to issues of referendum result as political judgment.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
We're clearly staying in the customs union for years more - I'm going to tweet out the main points of my Sky Views piece: 1/10
2/10 Car industry in Europe and integrated supply chains built on single market regulatory harmonisation & Customs Union free flow of parts
3/10 Eg Redditch GKN Driveline system: German "Forging Joints" French "Tripods", Spanish "Forging Tripods" -supplied to car plant for export

Have to go out in five mins so this is me done.... Rubbish timing.

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jaws5 · 28/10/2016 10:37

Shit!

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2016 10:47

Mark Elliott seems to suggest there is room to appeal. But I could be wrong. Court has granted leave to on all but 1 of 5 issues. Can't link to him but it's on Twitter.

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SwedishEdith · 28/10/2016 11:00

Daily Mail is talking about introducing ID cards today. This fills me with horror. Horrid things that take away liberty. (Has certain implications particularly in NI...)

David Davis is staunchly against these so that could get interesting (if it's a real story and not just on the DM's fantasy wish list).

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RedToothBrush · 28/10/2016 11:10

Mark Elliott is pointing out there are two questions that should be kept separate. The ni ruling did not. If they are kept separate then the government's position collapses. He therefore thinks the ruling is potentially flawed. More on his twitter feed.

It's definitely a blow but it's not the end of the road. Yet.

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GloriaGaynor · 28/10/2016 11:10

Don't be downhearted, it was never very likely that the case would succeed.

Paul Maguire the judge hearing the case in Belfast, said he would give "immediate consideration" to the arguments but that to expect the judiciary to reverse a decision like Brexit "is not realistic".

"Surely these are matters for the government to decide, not matters for a court to decide?" he said.

I think it's more about drawing attention to NI situation.

Next stop, petition of consent.

GloriaGaynor · 28/10/2016 11:19

Concern not consent!

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