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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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Thread gallery
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prettybird · 27/10/2016 18:55

Shouting at the news again tonight it's a wonder that the TV hasn't been smashed when they kept on going on about the economy not being damaged by Brexit, using the Nissan announcement and the fact that growth in the last quarter had only gone down 0.2% and was still positive at 0.5% as "proof".

WE'VE NOT LEFT YET. *
*
The growth was also largely due to the service sector - which is most vulnerable to the constraints of a hard Brexit - while all the sectors that produced "things" shrank. Sad

I too would be interested in the legality of the reassurance that May or may not have been given to Nissan in the event of trade barriers. Hmm

.....and would also be interested in seeing the queue of other companies seeking similar reassurances and the price tags attached

mathanxiety · 27/10/2016 19:09

Indeed, TheNorthRemembers - wrt the Leadsom article in the Farmers' journal. The one comment in the Comments section is:
'Such a lot of useless waffle that no one has even bothered to comment here!'

The mind boggles.

Meanwhile on planet Earth ... Ireland's en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glanbia, formerly Waterford Co-op and Avonmore, has been busy making inroads into North America, Asia, Eastern Europe and Africa, identifying trends, securing markets. This was all possible under EU rules.

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 19:16

Laura Kuenssberg ‏@bbclaurak
Quote coming in 2 parts, then you decide what David Mundell meant...
1. “I accept on one level if we’re leaving the EU then essentially we are leaving the single market'....
2. 'but our access to the single market can continue in a way that doesn’t involve tariffs or barriers'...today's Brexit challenge

And we are back to the unilateral continuity plan it seems.

Laura Kuenssberg ‏@bbclaurak
If anyone interested govt sources confirm there will have to be a vote on new grammars

The big question is 'When?' It could get interesting.

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RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 19:38

Adam Wagner ‏@AdamWagner1 has been tweeting today some of the graphs in this document about safety in custody.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/562897/safety-in-custody-bulletin.pdf

They show that since 2012 when there was a big cut in the budget, there has been a huge rise in deaths in custody (including a huge rise in 'natural causes which raises eyebrows), a huge rise in self-harm incidents in prisons, a huge rise in assaults in prisons, a huge rise in prisoner-on-prisoner assaults, a huge rise in assaults on prison staff

And it seems that Ms May is about to get another rather large headache.
Neil Henderson ‏@hendopolis
MORNING STAR: Prison staff 'ready to strike' over soaring violence #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers

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Peregrina · 27/10/2016 19:44

Re Prisons - won't May just pass the buck to Amber Rudd?

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 19:46

Ciaran Jenkins ‏@C4Ciaran
Nissan tell me government has NOT given them written guarantee.
Nissan HAVE been given insight into govt negotiating position.
Nissan source says there was misunderstanding around its call for Brexit compensation.

Well that's interesting...

  1. How can Nissan be told but not parliament?
  2. Why did someone say that there had been a written guarantee to reuters? What do they gain from that - or is it a denial of the truth?
  3. Misunderstanding? How?

Something not adding up here.

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RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 19:49

Prisons are Liz Truss not Amber Rudd I believe. There is only so much she will be able to pass the buck on that one as its a matter of public safety.

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Peregrina · 27/10/2016 19:54

Ah, prisons no longer Home Office then. I must keep up. Something is definitely not adding up if Nissan can be told something but not Parliament. The question is, which MPs are going to make a stink about it?

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 20:02

Kevin Maguire @Kevin_Maguire
The Labour MP the Tories really fear

www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/10/commons-confidential-fearing-wigan-warrior

The Wigan warrior is enjoying favourable reviews for her forensic examination of the troubled inquiry into historic child sex abuse. After Nandy put May on the spot, the Tory three-piece suit Alec Shelbrooke was overheard muttering: “I hope she never runs for leader.” Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, the Thelma and Louise of Tory opposition to Mayhem, were observed nodding in agreement.

Lisa Nandy.

Strangely enough, she fits the description the female UKIP focus group on election data gave for the person they would like to lead Labour and who would win their vote....

She was also one of the three MPs calling for Labour not to stand in Richmond.

Worth watching what she does if she's ruffling feathers like that. There's hope in Labour yet.

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lalalonglegs · 27/10/2016 20:17

Lisa Nandy gives every impression that she would be a fantastic leader but I can't imagine how she's gong to get there in the current climate. The last leadership challenge was so bruising and, ultimately, completely counter-productive. I think the only way to shift Corbyn is for him to retire of his own volition and I'm not sure his minders would allow that unless he had anointed a (identikit) successor. And, given the government's timetable for events, time is not on Labour's side.

CeciledeVolanges · 27/10/2016 20:33

Prisons are Truss. And before that Gove, and Grayling.

SwedishEdith · 27/10/2016 20:34

I like Lisa Nandy. Didn't know, until recently, her dad was a Liberal MP. She's only 37 though so plenty of time to get more experience.

PattyPenguin · 27/10/2016 20:35

The Grauniad is saying (my bold)
"[Colin] Lawther, Nissan’s European senior vice president for manufacturing, purchasing, and supply chain management, said that the decision had been made after daily conversations with the government since the referendum.

“It comes down to trust at the end of the day,” Lawther said. “We are confident the government is taking sufficient measures to make sure the whole of the automative industry will be competitive at the end of the process”.

He said there had been “no financial package outside the normal, in the public domain request, for grant support”.

That would square with no written guarantees.

Production of the new Qashqai is supposed to start in 2018 or 2019, before we know that the post-Brexit landscape will be.

I can't believe Nissan doesn't have a Plan B. Would a firm that size really make huge decisions for the future on the basis of trust in politicians without a backup option?

smallfox2002 · 27/10/2016 20:42

The assurances might be that automotive tariffs are not going to be applied

lalalonglegs · 27/10/2016 20:51

Well, it's nice to hear that Nissan is given daily contact with Whitehall but the Scottish government have to wait 36 hours with its "hotline" access Hmm.

SwedishEdith · 27/10/2016 20:57

Is a FOI request appropriate for this or would it be seen as confidential - commercially too sensitive or whatever? But, if there's nothing to hide, how can it be? I'm sure a journalist will be on to it if it is.

CeciledeVolanges · 27/10/2016 21:03

I'm 99% sure it would be commercially sensitive/confidential

Figmentofmyimagination · 27/10/2016 21:05

Nissan told but not parliament? How very 'corporatist' of her. Doesn't that also go by another label beginning with f with two syllables?

HesterThrale · 27/10/2016 21:23

Shopping in Primark today, I noticed a lot of the prices were the same number in euros as in pounds. Euros used to be a higher number. This has happened since June, I think. Not good.

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 21:35

FOI no go. Commercial.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-price-rises-hitting-customers-economy-uk-government-a7383041.html
who admitted price rises are hitting consumers
It is the second time in two days that Mark Garnier has found himself on the wrong side of Theresa May

www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-gdp-growth-figures-halved-after-eu-referendum-europe-conservative-party-tories-a7383111.html
After the latest growth figures, the Tories may have to rethink their Brexit strategy
For three centuries the Conservative Party has existed to protect, preserve and increase the wealth of the nation. When that wealth demonstrably starts to be reduced,its politics will have to change

Remainer Jen ‏@Justice4Brexit
@Lawandpolicy NI Court verdict tomorrow. US election in 12 days.

I assume this is the A50 NI case...

metro.co.uk/2016/10/26/the-government-wants-to-make-a-list-of-everyone-who-uses-porn-in-britain-6217019/#ixzz4OH4yx8v9
The government wants to ‘make a list’ of everyone who uses porn inBritain

Good luck with that one. I see no MPs having a problem with this at all! I'm sure the idea will be hugely popular in the media of course.

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RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 21:46

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/easyjet-hopeful-of-brexit-airspace-deal-but-relocation-still-a-possibility-a7383736.html
Easyjet hopeful of Brexit airspace deal, but relocation still a possibility

Ciaran Jenkins ‏@C4Ciaran
Nissan source says "compensation" might mean govt financing R&D projects etc in event of difficult Brexit.
Nissan told me blank cheque wouldn't be helpful. Struggling to think of situation I'd say this.

Ian Silvera ‏@ianjsilvera
UPDATE: @Arron_banks tells me Leave.EU will back Goldsmith

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ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 27/10/2016 22:03

Leave.Eu's backing will sink Goldsmith.

RBeer · 27/10/2016 22:03

They are going with the custom union and hoping to get passporting rights.

RBeer · 27/10/2016 22:06

Davis will resign knowing his dept will cease to exist.

Peregrina · 27/10/2016 23:02

The government wants to ‘make a list’ of everyone who uses porn inBritain

It reminds me of the French Premier when asked about if his Ministers were going to resign over some adulterous sex scandal, saying that if that were the case his Cabinet would only comprise Women and Gays (Neither of which ever have affairs, of course.)

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