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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 14:53

BTW, have you seen the Times front page with the starving woman in Yemen to draw attention to 'the forgotten war' there. The woman in question is EIGHTEEN. I await someone using the age app on it to question this.

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TheBathroomSink · 27/10/2016 14:54

Goldsmith isn't really getting the fight he wanted, is he? The lib dems agree with him on lhr, so he can't use that.

The election data site has some interesting analysis of the local election results over the last couple of years, which seem to show that the ukip vote is generally getting smaller.

LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 15:01

The election data site has some interesting analysis of the local election results over the last couple of years, which seem to show that the ukip vote is generally getting smaller.

I'm sure someone could work that into a joke with some sexual innuendo. I'm sure UKIP would applaud it's political incorrectness. I wonder who could pull it off Hmm ...

MirabelleTree · 27/10/2016 15:27

Belgiums break CETA deadlock

Mistigri · 27/10/2016 15:46

Given the potential legal (state aid) and practical (every other big exporter wanting a share of the same cake) ramifications, I can only assume that May has promised Nissan something she knows she will never have to deliver ...

... Either because Brexit isn't happening or because staying in the single market is now official albeit undeclared govt policy.

whatwouldrondo · 27/10/2016 15:52

Lurking My point was that despite billions being pumped into the car industry by successive governments we still have the situation at Longbridge......

It may be because I have limited interest or knowledge but it seems to me that the car industry has enjoyed more national focus, and subsidies, than it deserved aside from our undoubted excellence technologically (and associated romantic notions tied up with nationalism, the Jag sports cars have union jack valve caps on their tyres that people pay £42 for, and then have to remove every time they park up because they get nicked as souvenirs!) and the fact it employed a lot of people in critical locations, i.e. Oxford, Longbridge and now Sunderland .

As the vote showed there were other industrial sectors focused on other places, mainly in the north, that were allowed to wither on the vine with just the same repercussions with far less national will to intervene.

Glad for someone to correct me if i am being ignorant, I know i am uninformed on this one!

whatwouldrondo · 27/10/2016 15:55

I might add it is also one of the industry sectors that has a trade deficit so even this latest intervention seems out of all perspective with the apparent willingness to damage the financial services industry.

LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 15:56

Either because Brexit isn't happening or because staying in the single market is now official albeit undeclared govt policy.

Given the easiest option is to stay in the single market (it's almost a default Brexit) it's what I would aim for. It would require the pesky Freedom Of Movement however.

Given how much David Cameron was prepared to shit on UK benefits claimants (particularly the youngest) I can envisage a future with incredibly limited benefits for UK citizens, which will be trumpeted as the magic wand to stop foreigners coming to the UK.

LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 16:04

whatwouldrondo

That was my point too Smile.

All I know as someone who grew up helping his Dad run a motor repair workshop is British cars c. 1960s and 1970s were utterly shit. And I mean really shit. Mind bogglingly shit. So shit that even mediocre Japanese models were better - let alone the marvels of engineering coming out of Germany.

It's always been a mystery to me. Jaguar/Land Rover show we are capable of designing great cars. But not for the mass market. It's an oddity. Maybe it was the nature of UK labour relations (or lack thereof) at the time. Another mystery to me was why it was always management versus unions, rather than management and unions ??????

whatwouldrondo · 27/10/2016 16:05

Maybe the reason that UKIP is not fielding a candidate is because this is the calibre of the local ones

www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/local/richmondnews/12893385.VIDEO__Ukip_ahead_of_Twickenham_opposition__in_TryCycle_scooter_race_/

and dip into the comments here - they made Private Eyes Electionballs

twickerati.wordpress.com/2015/04/02/the-great-twickenham-general-election-spectacular/

merrymouse · 27/10/2016 16:11

UKIP got 4.2% of the Richmond Park vote in 2015 compared to 6% for the Greens. Looking at where UKIP are now and the general swing towards the Tories, they were never going to do much damage to Goldsmith.

tiggytape · 27/10/2016 16:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 16:50

Immigrants come for jobs not benefits

But Brexit is - and has always been - about peoples perceptions. Truth just isn't a factor.

A lot of Brexiteers were - and are - convinced that all immigrants want to do is claim benefits and (this is not made up) take our jobs.

The "Schrodingers immigrant" joke actually wasn't - there really are people who believe both views.

Again, we return to the demographics. Whatever benefits are cut or removed, we know one group that won't suffer, because of their triple-lock....

merrymouse · 27/10/2016 16:59

At this moment May's need to save face over Nissan seems greater than their need to move elsewhere. Even if no promises or deals are officially made, a mark will have been put in the ledger - just as deals are done behind the scenes in Europe.

Maybe May's long term plan is that although she knows she doesn't have more control, if she can keep all the negotiations back stage, nobody will care.

Of course everything would have to be legal, but it's not as though many people were that bothered about the EU before 2015.

LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 17:02

Of course everything would have to be legal

Not really. Theresa May has a proven track record of ignoring the law - as the recent student deportations ruling showed.

merrymouse · 27/10/2016 17:04

Okay - not so illegal that it would be damaging politically.

LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 17:06

Okay - not so illegal that it would be damaging politically.

The Tory party has a brass neck when it comes to thumbing its nose at the law. Votes for prisoners, and the retrospective legalisation of workfare spring to mind.

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 17:27

Given the potential legal (state aid) and practical (every other big exporter wanting a share of the same cake) ramifications, I can only assume that May has promised Nissan something she knows she will never have to deliver ...

... Either because Brexit isn't happening or because staying in the single market is now official albeit undeclared govt policy.

Mistigri I would love to agree with that. Indeed, my logic does.

HOWEVER we have her previous track record and her approach to Brexit so far.

She could indeed have said that OR she could be recklessly and naively pursuing a strategy that is legally flawed because she's incompetent.

We can not rule out the fact that she has indeed played double jeopardy over this and is gambling with futures even more than we already feared.

I can not rule that out.

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CeciledeVolanges · 27/10/2016 17:36

Sorry everyone who was expecting a blog post - horrendously busy period of work, I've started but not finished t.
Re human rights Lurking one of the reasons extricating ourselves from the Convention would have been so hard was that the EU had committed to becoming a member, and it was inconceivable that we would leave the EU...

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 17:42

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tories-quietly-scrap-remainder-forced-9139686
Tories quietly scrap remainder of 'forced academies' education bill
The education bill, which originally included a plan to force schools to become academies, has been quietly buried

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merrymouse · 27/10/2016 17:54

jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/breaking-baroness-tonge-suspended-by-liberal-democrats/

Not great timing for lib dems - she was their last but one Richmond Park MP.

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 17:58

Duncan Stott ‏@DuncanStott
Politicians backed by Nigel Farage:
• Vladimir Putin
• Donald Trump
• Marine Le Pen
• Zac Goldsmith

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TheElementsSong · 27/10/2016 18:07

news.sky.com/story/nissan-investment-may-come-at-significant-cost-10634181

The truth of the matter is that we just don't know what 'assurances' have been given by the UK government to Nissan. What we do know is that other carmakers, such as Vauxhall and Toyota, both of whom are poised to make similar investment decisions, will be beating a path to Number 10 to demand similar treatment.

So this announcement raises far more questions than answers. And when the truth emerges, if it turns out that public money is being used to preserve the jobs of those who voted to leave the EU, it may well antagonise those taxpayers who voted Remain and who may lose their jobs as a result of the decision to leave the EU.

TheElementsSong · 27/10/2016 18:11

Have we had this article?

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-nissan-support-idUKKCN12R1AK

Britain has given Nissan (7201.T) a written commitment of extra support in the event that Brexit reduces the competitiveness of its Sunderland plant, in return for new production investments by the Japanese carmaker, a source with knowledge of the matter told Reuters.

In addition to unconditional investment aid, Britain pledged in a letter to offer further relief if the terms of Britain's European Union exit ended up harming the plant's performance, the source said.

Peregrina · 27/10/2016 18:25

as the recent student deportations ruling showed.

How convenient that the Heathrow decision was announced on that day, and so it didn't much make the news, whereas it was worthy of the front page.

Is Baroness Tonge's suspension also a coincidence, or just bad timing for the LibDems?