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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris grabs his clown suit for Halloween, whilst we wonder if parliament survive until Bonfire Night

982 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 13:23

Remember, remember the 5th of November. Gunpower, treason and plot. For I see no reason Why Gunpowder Treason Should ever be forgot.

Here we are 401 years after Guy Fawkes was foiled. The failed attempt to kill the King and destroy parliament celebrates stopping what is now regarded generally as an attempted act of terrorism but to others he was a martyr.

This division would form part of the dynamic between various factions following the death of Elizabeth I which eventually led the civil war as Charles I dismissed Parliament to avoid its scrutiny. A division that lead to Irish and Scottish uprisings. A division that lead to the lost of many of our then colonies to another nation.

You start to wonder just how much has changed within British Society.

The dynamics of the era might be different, but following the referendum vote we have a power vacuum into which our uncertain direction and future is fuelling cries of ‘traitor’, there is widespread loathing of Europeans and their values who apparently ‘threaten our way of life’, many are simply given the label of ‘potential terrorist’ purely for their religion, there is ill feeling throughout Ireland, in Scotland, there is talk of revolt and uprising, our parliamentary democracy seems potentially under threat by the power of the crown and the relative stability of the long reign of Queen Elizabeth must end soon and her heir to the throne is a man named Charles.

Strangely enough, many of the rights being quoted in the a50 case originate from this same period of turbulence in British history, or from the direct consequences of it. It is not a coincidence.

So where are we at? The decision on a50 and what it means for our parliament is due before the end of the month. It is not likely to be the final ruling but it will set the tone and direction for what happens next. Is it likely to win?

In my opinion, whilst the constitutional argument might be strong in principle the challenge has a great deal of merit. Several of these might win out but the most compelling of these is: If a50 is triggered and our government is unable to reach an agreement by the end of two years we will leave the EU and rights will be removed as a direct result which is outside the power of the royal prerogative.

Against this, May herself has set up an atmosphere where the court challenge which is a protected right of the people to challenge the government has been framed as ‘subverting democracy’ which raises questions about how the ruling will be accepted if it goes in favour of the claimant. The anger on display on Question time last night is worrying. The government must make a strong point about respecting the ruling even if they challenge it. And conversely if the challenge looses, they must acknowledge its merits and legitimacy to appeal rather than allowing it to be framed as a blank cheque for their agenda.

It must – once again - be stressed that the challenge is not about thwarting Brexit. It is about making sure that Brexit is done properly and with due diligence.

And you have to seriously wonder if May is using due diligence. Donald Tusk said we might get into a situation where it is ‘hard brexit’ or ‘no brexit’. This has been interpreted as an EU threat. Personally I think it is nothing of sort. It’s a warning. For our own good.

The much talked about CETA agreement (Candian Free Trade agreement) all but collapsed on Friday due to a single region of Belgium opposing it. It is now in last chance saloon to save the deal. This is the context behind Tusk’s comment. He also warned that CETA might be the EU’s last FTA as result of the difficulties in trying to pass it.

What he meant was the chances are that no agreement will be possible with the approach the British seem to be taking. This means the alternatives will be a chaotic unmanaged exit with no transitional deal or a realisation that we are better off sticking in the EU afterall.

Understanding this is important. May is missing this in her determination to be tough, and is further alienating European leaders. May has made assurances to Nissan, but the reality is she is in no position to make any such promises as the reality is if she stick so tightly to the line on immigration she has no way of keeping them. The EU will give us no ground at all here no matter what anyone says. The harder May is, they harder they will be.

When Cameron tried to do a deal which restricted migration, the brick wall he hit was the fact he could find no evidence to back up the claim that migration was a problem. When he turned to MigrationWatch for help the best they could come up with was newspaper clippings. The UK lie 13th in the EEA for migration. The EU pointed out that all the problems this highlighted where caused by UK level policy rather than EU policy and Cameron was forced to admit that hostility to migration was much more cultural rather than an economic or one over services. As a commentor in the FT sums up: “In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrant didn’t have any negative impact on them.” Notably Thursday’s questiontime came from Hartlepool – a area with hardly any immigration and where 95.6% of the population are white english born. Its also been a week where there has been uproar over 14 refugee children coming to the UK due to their age, gender and lack of cuteness, whilst announcements over no more money for the NHS have been all but totally ignored. It’s a sentiment that is getting increasingly difficult to argue with especially with the overall tone coming from May’s lips and actions.

Tusk’s speech was also strong on 1930s references and this is largely the motivation behind strong comments from Hollande and Merkel about a deal being hard to get. They simply won’t stand for rhetoric which they believe sounds as if it has fascist undertones. The message was lost in the British press though. On top of this, even if Hollande goes, Saroksy and Juppe have been lining up to talk about moving Calais’s problems to Kent. Something that is entirely possible if we disregard our international commitments to Dublin.

This is why we need the article 50 ruling so badly. And this is why May is so opposed to it. It actually gives her a way to back down and save face. Failing that parliament must up the ante and pressure May with its full force – and it may cost her dear. And this is why the right wing media who make a profit from peddling lies about migration are so opposed to them as May is such a kindred spirit.

It has got nothing to do with an elite conspiracy to derail Brexit. Many, many remainers with heavy hearts think it must happen to prevent a further lurch to the right. It is not because Brexit must be stopped, but because May’s self destructive vision and approach to Brexit must be stopped and replaced by an approach that at least acknowledges the dangers rather than labelling it as treason or a lack of patriotism to do so. Marmitegate has been our warning; Leadsom has this week has been unable to refute the possibility that food prices will go up 27% something that many working class leave voters who feel left behind just can’t afford. That way lies even greater hardship and division.

Brexit MUST have a transitional deal if it is to work at all, however unpopular this might be and however people are afraid that delays will kill Brexit entirely or be seen as a fudge as this is in the national interest. This needs to start being the approach of all and pushed to the public by Leavers and Remainers alike

Brexit MUST not trigger a50 on a certain date because May made a political promise to her supporters and this happens to suit the EU’s agenda too. It must be when we are ready, when we have a better consensus and when we are prepared. The uncertainty over whether we will achieve a smooth change is as damaging as a delay to investment. Brexit MUST also include tackling xenophobic attitudes and confronting our centuries old ingrained mentality as this brand of ‘British Values’ were the ones that lead us not to our greatest moment, but the one that lead us to perhaps our greatest crisis and threat to our future.

I find a certain irony - and also a creeping fear - that the first article 50 ruling should fall at this time of year. Especially since the British celebration is being forgotten increasingly being replaced in favour of the more American Halloween. I wonder what further frights and horrors await us over the next couple of weeks.

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Thread gallery
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RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 13:22

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-nissan-support-idUKKCN12R1AK
UK secured Nissan investment with Brexit relief promise - source

There may be trouble ahead But while there's moonlight And music and love and romance Let's face the music and dance

I hope May looked into the legalities of doing this... I really do... cos from what I've seen floating about on twitter, it's questionable - and she's now set a precedent.

And Toyota are unhappy.

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TheElementsSong · 27/10/2016 13:24

I'm torn between feeling positive that Nissan are sticking around for now, and concern as to what they were promised for it - and how much it's going to cost us.

LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 13:25

If there is one thing that has come out of these threads its the reality that intelligent people who are vaguely interested in politics still don't understand a lot of aspects of them and find them very inaccessible.

Given in mind the make up of the UK school syllabus it's hardly surprising. We are taught nothing about how the country we live in, and it's institutions work.

Legal system ? Criminal. Civil. Constitution ? Citizens rights. Citizens responsibilities ?

I've had more training in health and safety since I left school than I ever had on the above from school. The only reason I know anything is I lived in the library as a child, and had a parent who was not English, and felt it was important to not only learn the language, but the culture too. Which was a great way to be picked on at school, when teachers pointed out that "the foreign kid" knew more about English history than the others in the class Sad

LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 13:25

I'm torn between feeling positive that Nissan are sticking around for now, and concern as to what they were promised for it - and how much it's going to cost us

£350 million a week ?

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 13:30

Alan Beattie ‏@alanbeattie
Hey, trade folks. You know those interminable debates about whether Airbus/Boeing subsidies are trade-distorting?

Paul LUFC ‏@pistol1603
@carryonkeith So instead of contributions to EU are we giving hand outs to companies individually to stay here? A farcical situation if true

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smallfox2002 · 27/10/2016 13:32

I really hope May has looked into the legalities of doing this, and realises that she is now over a barrel for every other manufacturer who might be harmed.

Quite frankly it seems to be a short term game plan, will they continue guarantees indefinitely?

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 13:35

Anyone else think there is a minister in Whitehall who has a busy afternoon ahead dealing with every manufacturing firm in the country ringing up for 'Brexit bonuses'.

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smallfox2002 · 27/10/2016 13:36

I think you might be right

Certainly Toyota, Honda, BMW and Vauxhall will have been on the phone already.

ManonLescaut · 27/10/2016 13:37

It's totally unsustainable.

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 13:39

In fact the green light has just been given for more uncertainity.

Threaten the government with job cuts for your Brexit Bonus. The more jobs you can threaten the better.

Someone will be making a packet out of those dinners where you can lobby a minister at.

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RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 13:43

Vauxhall were on the phone yesterday. They got wind of it.
They were making threats about job cuts weren't they?

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham
If Brexit hits manufacturers, it'll hit jobs and the public purse indirectly via tax receipts, and now directly too.

Double jeopardy.
We just went double or quits as if the Brexit gamble wasn't enough on its own.

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LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 13:45

Threaten the government with job cuts for your Brexit Bonus. The more jobs you can threaten the better.

I think a Tory government might take that as an opportunity, rather than a threat Sad. I know there is no precedent for a Tory government throwing entire generations and communities on the scrapheap, but there's a first time for everything.

Remember, the mood music has been set - so any negatives can be blamed on the "spiteful" EU (as if the UK would act magnanimously), "Remoaners", or the solar wind. It will never be Brexits fault.

I find myself dismally wondering what other Tory pipe-dreams will be advanced under cover of "Brexit". Human Rights is an old favourite ....

TheNorthRemembers · 27/10/2016 13:50

smallfox If we are going over the cliff edge we can promise any deal to Nissan... It sounds firefighting to me, more than anything else.

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 13:51

BBC Question Time ‏@bbcquestiontime
Here's our full #bbcqt panel - we'll be on BBC One this Thursday: @gregclarkmp @Keir_Starmer @SalBrinton @KenLoachSixteen @DiaChakravarty

Oh the perfect time to ask Greg all about the Nissan Deal.
Its in Gloucester tonight.

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whatwouldrondo · 27/10/2016 13:54

But the UK car industry was always a bottomless pit......

whatwouldrondo · 27/10/2016 13:55

Sorry, not actually always, but in my lifetime....

LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 13:55

But the UK car industry was always a bottomless pit

Have you visited Longbridge recently ?

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 14:09

Actually those manufacturers might be listening to 'elevator music' on repeat for sometime before they get through to Greg.

Chris Green ‏@cghgreen
News story alert: @NicolaSturgeon reveals that it took Scot Govt 36hrs to get through to David Davis on his 'Brexit hotline' this week

(tweet from today!)

About that Nissan subsidy:
PolicyReviewEU ‏@PolicyReviewEU Oct 14
@simonjhix post-Brexit any sweetheart deal for Nissan, may well make them liable for countervailing (anti-subsidy) duties under WTO rules.

(Same goes for EU too I believe - if its even legal).

David Head ‏@DavidHeadViews Oct 15
#Nissan doesn't need Govt subsidy to operate in Sunderland while UK is in #EU. #TheresaMay thinks paying it to stay is progress. #Brexit

The 'Lets stay in the EU instead' argument.

nick tolhurst @nicktolhurst
very amusing watching all the Leavers demanding we leave overregulated EU hailing our 70s style industrial Govt subsidising Nissan to stay

Why did Thatcher close the coal mines? Something to do with subsidies in part at least. Is May the Anti-Thatcher? It looks more and more by the day. Thatcher hailed the individual whilst may hails society.

SteveKomarnyckyj ‏@SteveKomarnycky
#Leave voters should immediately protest at this subsidy- after all a thriving post #Brexit economy will surely convince Nissan to stay?

Wasn't growth up today, yet we still need this. Is it an admission that yes, actually it could all go horribly, horribly wrong?

Rob.Lackenby ‏@Butsurelynot
@ReutersLobby Nissan subsidy from UK taxpayers may play well here in short term, but not other EU countries with whom we negotiate Brexit

God the French are going to absolutely love it aren't they?

Sean McCarthy ‏@seanmcca
Does this mean the UK taxpayer will get a #niscount on a new Nissan, does the Gov subsidy extent to SME's or just the big players #Brexit

Seems fair to me.

Martyn Allison ‏@grobykid
Read the small print. Nissan offered subsidy if Brexit affects profitability. Being out costs more than being in.

Always read the small print. Now think of the small businesses who can't get a Brexity Bonus. Brexit was supposed to be for the little guys not the big evil multinational corporations who control us.

Yes, Nissan staying in the UK looks a bloody great triumph for Brexit doesn't it, when you start looking at it in detail. Its just PR, that could end up more like PFI than something in the national (or indeed local) interest.

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RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 14:11

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
Business Secretary Greg Clark tells me: "It’s very important that businesses like Nissan and others help shape our negotiating mandate"

SPEECHLESS.

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RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 14:21

Alan Beattie ‏@alanbeattie
Alan Beattie Retweeted Faisal Islam
Fixed that quote for him: "It’s very important that businesses like Nissan ding us for handouts before we've even started talks."

www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/agrm8_e.htm#subsidies

Prohibited subsidies: subsidies that require recipients to meet certain export targets, or to use domestic goods instead of imported goods. They are prohibited because they are specifically designed to distort international trade, and are therefore likely to hurt other countries’ trade. They can be challenged in the WTO dispute settlement procedure where they are handled under an accelerated timetable. If the dispute settlement procedure confirms that the subsidy is prohibited, it must be withdrawn immediately. Otherwise, the complaining country can take counter measures. If domestic producers are hurt by imports of subsidized products, countervailing duty can be imposed.

Actionable subsidies: in this category the complaining country has to show that the subsidy has an adverse effect on its interests. Otherwise the subsidy is permitted. The agreement defines three types of damage they can cause. One country’s subsidies can hurt a domestic industry in an importing country. They can hurt rival exporters from another country when the two compete in third markets. And domestic subsidies in one country can hurt exporters trying to compete in the subsidizing country’s domestic market. If the Dispute Settlement Body rules that the subsidy does have an adverse effect, the subsidy must be withdrawn or its adverse effect must be removed. Again, if domestic producers are hurt by imports of subsidized products, countervailing duty can be imposed.

Start up the music please!
There may be trouble ahead...

Duncan Robinson @duncanrobinson
Ballsy. Starting EU negotiations with state aid pledge.

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RedToothBrush · 27/10/2016 14:38

UKIP backs Goldsmith on his Heathrow stance.

A UKIP Spokesman said, "On Tuesday 25th October Zac Goldsmith MP announced that he was resigning as the Conservative MP for Richmond Park, in light of the Government's announcement on a third runway at Heathrow.

"Zac Goldsmith has resigned on a matter of principle and UKIP admire him for having the courage to do so. UKIP have always believed that Gatwick was a preferred option to Heathrow.

"Recognising Zac as a principled man, who was fully committed to helping get Britain out of the European Union, UKIP Leader Nigel Farage, in conjunction with our National Executive Committee have agreed that we will not be fielding a candidate in the upcoming by-election for Richmond Park.

"The Liberal Democrats committed to overturning the result of the 2016 Referndum and ignoring the will of the British people. This must not be allowed to happen.

"UKIP are encouraging all of our supporters and voters to support Zac Goldsmith in his bid to become an independent MP"

Plus Arron wouldn't lend us another fiver for the campaign as he thinks we won't get our deposit back in Richmond.

Meanwhile in LD HQ

Jessica Elgot @jessicaelgot
"We're obviously thrilled," says a Lib Dem source on the Zac Goldsmith Ukip endorsement.

Zac wanted it to be about Heathrow, and now UKIP have hijacked the agenda for by-election too!

Oh the flip side to this, this is also a little worrying - polarising and marginalisation of LD as an enemy. Where is this headed? What are UKIP supporters going to do to aid Goldsmith?

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LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 14:44

Maybe UKIP should put their own candidate up ?

Peregrina · 27/10/2016 14:46

UKIP supporters did extremely little in Witney, despite putting up a candidate, so let's not assume that they will do much in Richmond.

From their point of view, they can try to claim some moral high ground, and save themselves a lost deposit.

TheNorthRemembers · 27/10/2016 14:51

Lurkinghusband Please, do not mention Longbridge, it makes me so sad.

Red Greg Clark's waffling today was truly masterful.

LurkingHusband · 27/10/2016 14:52

UKIP supporters did extremely little in Witney, despite putting up a candidate, so let's not assume that they will do much in Richmond.

Well, UKIPs strategy - brilliant at the time - was to engage all those people who previously had not voted. Only now we are starting to see why.

For a good number of them, "Brexit" has happened, so they're no longer needed.