Does anyone else sense a change of mood re Brexit?

[twofingerstoGideon]

I was rather astounded following the referendum that politicians of all shades weren't making noises about Brexit needing parliamentary scrutiny etc., but at last - after almost four months - it's as if people are waking up, noticing the shambles and saying "Hang on a minute... I'm not sure we should be doing this..." It was shocking to see the lack of reaction to the xenophobia and the way politicians of all shades seemed to be saying we had to blindly obey the very slim majority. The lack of disgust expressed by the press/politicians about the barefaced lies used by the Leave campaign (not to mention that poster) was also mind-blowing.

Has anyone else noticed a change in the air? I'm starting to feel slightly hopeful for the first time since 24th June that the country isn't just going to jump off a cliff in order to follow 'the will of the people'.

Anyone else, or am I deluded?

The reality is most vote for self interest. For the vast majority in financial services, the first and over abiding reason they voted remain was passporting rights.

Did Sunderland or Cornwall vote for self-interest? You said upthread that Scotland is a huge net receiver of funds and that was why they voted to Remain.

How do you know why "the vast majority" of people in financial services voted, and for such a specific reason too? What happened to "different people voted for different reasons"?

she clearly said that she felt unwelcome because she was no longer wanted by 52% of the voters, that is when she was booed . she was booed because she tried to suggest that 52% of the voters want all immigrants out.

So she is in the wrong to feel unwelcome? Just like posters here on MN who have said they feel unwelcome are wrong and have to have their error Leavesplained to them? Or was she just in the wrong to say she felt it, because she caused unforgivable offence by hurting the feelings of those of the 52% who want to dissociate themselves from their less savoury colleagues?

SAHM's employing an au pair (where there are specific obligations on hours, the nature of their duties and the support you provide for their studies remember, a very high incidence of that relationship breaking down on the part of au pair or employer, not a sustainable solution for a working parent ) to help out is different to claiming that people are employing EU migrants as cheap childcare. I don't know anyone employing a Norland Nanney either but I do know many Nannies with experience who have made a career out of childcare over many years, certainly a better prospect than working in the retail sector for instance. Boris's mayorality certainly viewed the cost of childcare in London as an issue that was affecting the ability of parents to work.

I agree that passporting was a factor in the vote, as it was for me, but out of understanding the role of the financial services industry in the economy as much as self interest, but remember this? This certainly rings a bell in terms of the London remain vote www.ft.com/content/1faa1b6c-3d3e-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a

I didn't say she was wrong to feel unwelcome what she was called out for was suggesting that all the leave voted to get rid of the Poles. Which is absolutely not true.

Remainers can and often do have a different kind of supercilious racism: the racism of indulgence, of believing in dependence, of basically needing others to need your help. That it doesn't matter if people are maids here rather than entrepreneurs and nurses in their own country. That nothing improves unless money is thrown at it from the 'enlightened anglosphere'. Remainers often (always) don't acknowledge this; they're barely conscious of it and will always deny it. However it goes hand in hand with contempt for 'white poor' is drips from every disdainful justification for their standpoint.

I think the mood of the country has shifted in a number of worrying ways. It feels like the leash that kept the dogs in check has been slipped.

Views, ideas and opinions that were thought but not voiced have become acceptable, mainstream even. People are happy to defend views that lack any respect for wider humanity.

The idea that we belong to a world community is dismissed as naive. The idea that we have international obligations is interpreted as everyone picking on the poor, hard done by UK.

I can only hope as the reality of the economic situation becomes apparent views start to change. My concern is that by that point the rabid minority (not a Brexiters belong to it) will have such a grip there will be nothing that can be done.

Legal and constitutional responses to Brexit are not whitewashing but they can be complex. Anything that can't be explained in a sound bite is politicians cheating us.

Well that has depressed me

she was called out for was suggesting that all the leave voted to get rid of the Poles

She said "I feel no longer welcome by 52% of the voters..." and then the boos started before she said anything else. She feels that way.

On the Trump issue, having travelled east both before the referendum and recently the rest of the world absolutely considers Brexit and Trump to be part of the same weird incomprehensible phenomenon. Both America and the UK stood for something in the world, specifically the democratic values that many countries aspire to, but also it was assumed that such successful economies arose out of rationality. Those brands have been damaged by this self harm and in their place an assumption that both countries suffer from illusions of entitlement.

WinchesterWoman How can you support Trump when he is a corrupt misogynist narcissist. As Corcory said (not sure if it was this thread) all of that was evident from watching a few minutes of his repulsive behaviour on the Apprentice, tin hat conspiracy theories about biased reporting are irrelevant.

Oh what over dramatic rubbish. We belong to the 'world community' if we're not in the EU. Just like every other country in the world bar 27. I can't believe that all the remain arguments are reduced to is a sort of sentimental daily mail sad face x a million.

And you would be right not to believe it, WW, because that would make you a fucking idiot.

I like the people's movement behind trump rondo unlike some poster I don't have contempt and disdain for the lives, experiences and feelings of millions of ordinary people.

With an obvious non-English surname, it's interesting that - despite being born here of Scouse stock - my wife has recently been asked a few times if she's thinking about "going back". And the people enquiring don't mean "to Liverpool".

Since we've been married 10 years, you have to ask why it didn't happen in the first 9 ?

More upsetting is our DS being asked the same - he's only 20, so has no frame of reference.

To see and hear my family being abused and insulted in the country of their birth (and mine too, by the way) fills me with a rage beyond incandescent. And I am a mild little guy.

If I feel this way, what is happening to this country ?

Kai's that's all they fucking look like from here

Being part of a community means responsibilities and obligations. If we put up the economic, physical and metaphorical borders it makes it harder to engage with this. Especially if we are SHOUTING all the time.

My other point is the way remain arguments are dismissed as naïve, sentimental tosh. It is hard to argue about human rights without discussing humans.

I've had name/immigration issues

Nobody melts

If people aren't naive and sentimental they won't be called thar

I'm so sorry to hear that Palermonese.

I'm afraid that suggests some seriously limited powers of comprehension, WW.

That argument could be used for any election at any time. We cannot be in a process of continuous polling!

Should we be polling at all? Or should we trust that elected politicians with specialist advice should be able to decide what is best?

So WW does that mean you are a total, fucking bitch if I call you that.

Not that I ever would I'm far too polite.

I think the wheels are starting to come off for Theresa May. Her majority is slim and she appears to be pissing off even previously loyal friends like Hammond and Damian Green.

I wouldn't be surprised if Boris Johnson and George Osborne both have their own plans for leadership.

She's just been to her first EU summit as PM and got given 10 minutes to speak after dinner, and generally pretty short shrift.

The 'will of the people' can and does change. What was the latest poll? Fifty-something per cent of people are now worried about Brexit's economic effects? (Sorry, can't track down the actual poll now).

Even MPs who've been parroting the 'will of the people' thing have to take notice of what their constituents' views are and how/if they change.

May faces a long long slog of putting individual pieces of legislation up for a Parliamentary vote. MPs will have many opportunities to knock them back.

I'm not sure any of this will mean we come out with a Remain or with a sensible Brexit that doesn't harm freedom of movement or our economy. And, sadly, I think a lot of damage has already been done to our image in the world's eyes, and to our own society (rise in hate crime, the feting of ignorance over fact-based decisions, political popularism etc), that will take a long time to repair.

But yes, I DO feel that the wind might have changed.

Be the change you wish to see in the world might be an appropriate if trite comment at this point..

That wasn't to you Sapphire.

WinchesterWoman You can respect the feelings of the people (well all bar a few extremists) who support Trump and their reasons, but he remains entirely unfit psychologically and morally to represent them. How can you possibly want that man in power. What about the millions of black people, and women, who have their reasons to feel he will do nothing to tackle their inequality.

"She's just been to her first EU summit as PM and got given 10 minutes to speak after dinner, and generally pretty short shrift."

I heard it was 5 minutes, at 1am, with no response.