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Brexit
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Does anyone else sense a change of mood re Brexit?

649 replies

twofingerstoGideon · 19/10/2016 16:23

I was rather astounded following the referendum that politicians of all shades weren't making noises about Brexit needing parliamentary scrutiny etc., but at last - after almost four months - it's as if people are waking up, noticing the shambles and saying "Hang on a minute... I'm not sure we should be doing this..." It was shocking to see the lack of reaction to the xenophobia and the way politicians of all shades seemed to be saying we had to blindly obey the very slim majority. The lack of disgust expressed by the press/politicians about the barefaced lies used by the Leave campaign (not to mention that poster) was also mind-blowing.

Has anyone else noticed a change in the air? I'm starting to feel slightly hopeful for the first time since 24th June that the country isn't just going to jump off a cliff in order to follow 'the will of the people'.

Anyone else, or am I deluded?

OP posts:
Peregrina · 21/10/2016 10:51

We belong to the 'world community' if we're not in the EU.

Ah, we are 'citizens of nowhere' then, if you believe our dear Leader, Theresa May.

LurkingHusband · 21/10/2016 10:56

She's just been to her first EU summit as PM and got given 10 minutes to speak after dinner, and generally pretty short shrift.

What the fuck did she expect ?

Seriously, if she thought she could sashay in, and take her place with France and Germany - as before - then she is not only deluded, but has lost touch with reality.

It's beyond cringeworthy to read (goes to check European news sites ... yup, it's just the UK) UK media reports that T. May "expects the UK to be treated as a full EU member"

Yeah, good luck with that.

So the UK has walked out of the tent - making the biggest scene in the tents history - and is now by the door begging to be included in the discussions for things which will carry on after the UK has left ?

It's Kafkaesque - not that Brexiters would approve of such a reference. More Carrollesque perhaps ?

SapphireStrange · 21/10/2016 10:58

Yes, Lurking, Carrollesque is it exactly. Puffed-up arrogance under which is plain stupidity.

Or DOES May have an idea of what she's doing? I can't work it out. Is she just bulldozing on because she genuinely thinks the UK deserves a good relationship with an institution we have given the finger to and continue to muck about?

ClaudiaApfelstrudel · 21/10/2016 11:04

a massive 'reject' vote for Brexit in the Witney by-election the Tory majority down over 20000

Felascloak · 21/10/2016 11:07

I still think we aren't leaving.
At the moment I think we are going to fanny about in ever more desperate economic circumstances (due to slipping value of the £) until 2019, when the library dems progressive movement will kick off their electoral campaign on a remain ticket and we will get a hung parliament. If labour canot sort their lives out by then possibly even a labour govt but can't see that happening at the moment.
We then won't leave. Shame we will have massively damaged international relationships and validated racists in the meantime though

Felascloak · 21/10/2016 11:07

*can
I flipping hate my phone

WinchesterWoman · 21/10/2016 11:12

Remainers who decry nationalism don't seem to hove realised or even observed that the EU is behaving in a far more nationalistic fashion itself, and has been doing for a lot longer than the EU referendum campaign. It's disguised by the fact that it's not a single nation state; but political union is the aim of most EU leaders and certainly all EU officials that are not attached to nations but the Commission. The EU has been behaving in this quasi-nationalist fashion for some time and the now-growing populism is merely a response to it in kind. That this EU quasi-nationalism is now dressing itself with vindictiveness and protectionism is no surprise to Leave voters.

While EU political union is not here, there is a community which teh establishment finds profoundly important to protect. That is, the transnational community that has no affiliation but to the global superstate ideology. They pretend to be above petty nationalism. But they are a tribe, just like any other tribe, and they will protect themselves with energy and selfishness. It's just that Remainers can't see it.

WinchesterWoman · 21/10/2016 11:13

The pound needed to slip: it was overdue: we do not want the pound back where it was.

LurkingHusband · 21/10/2016 11:14

library dems progressive movement will kick off their electoral campaign on a remain ticket

library dems - typo ? Or crossword clue ? Smile

On a serious note, can the Lib Dems come back ? Irrespective of whether people forgive them for (a) coalition years and (b) tuition fees, they still have the FPTP system which ends up with people saying "I'd love to vote LibDem, but they will never get in".

Certainly, I suspect (a) - the coalition years - will be forgiven as we march on with 100% Tory (no added LibDems) ideology. It's now apparent how much work behind the scenes the LDs were doing to tone down the Tories.

As for (b) ... well it was the least convincing argument for rejecting the LibDems. Especially as I can recall an election promise from Cameron over the Lisbon treaty, which never materialised.

DollyBarton · 21/10/2016 11:15

Some things should never go to a people's vote. This was one of them.

Winchesterwoman, why exactly did the pound need to slip? I'm just curious. Haven't though about it too much in that direction as it slipping is so clearly a disaster.

DollyBarton · 21/10/2016 11:16

(Clearly to me I mean)

colouringinagain · 21/10/2016 11:17

I'd love to think the tide was turning but i am pretty sure it's wishful thinking. The Brexit result seems to have made racism legitimate. Politicians seem completely deluded in thinking we can still have a strong relationship with Europe. The Tories are destroying the NHS. And millions of people have been left behind over the last 30 yrs, their situation now being blamed on immigrants. I used to he proud to be British. Not any more.

WinchesterWoman · 21/10/2016 11:22

UK has badly unbalanced, indebted economy with a very large (record) current-account deficit - it's an unsustainable position - kept afloat only by market whim and absolute faith in house prices as an indicator of wealth.

We needed to depreciate to support output and cut the deficit. We can't pretend forever.

TheElementsSong · 21/10/2016 11:23

Dolly I believe there may be some sound arguments as to why some devaluation of the pound could be good for the economy (I'm not an economist by it has been discussed on the economics effect thread) - although personally I think there is rather a huge difference between a controlled devaluation under stable conditions and a 20% collapse during a state of political and economic turmoil.

Also I think if we are going to applaud the collapse of the pound as some sort of blessing by the Brexit gods, we can't also complain about (say) food and fuel prices shooting up, and we certainly can't also hurl angry abuse at the financial markets for "talking Britain down" and demand the silencing or dismissal of Mark Carney for the same.

WinchesterWoman · 21/10/2016 11:25

I don't understand why any Remainers think these vindictive EU leaders were ever our friends. It was all self interest - always. Now that same self interest serves them to be vindictive - therefore they are vindictive.

Nor would they be our friends again if we did not Brexit: they would be equally vindictive to prevent any other country from seeking to escape.

Many Remainers are so very, very naive.

WinchesterWoman · 21/10/2016 11:26

Elements: your second paragraph is rather a non sequitur. It doesn't follow at all.

SapphireStrange · 21/10/2016 11:28

Winchester, your post about 'vindictive EU leaders' comes across as rather paranoid.

smallfox2002 · 21/10/2016 11:32

Why do you think the EU leaders being vindictive?

WinchesterWoman · 21/10/2016 11:33

That's what I mean. Remainers live in a fluffy bunny world.

The EU as a body, as a quasi nation state, is not interested in the health, strength and prosperity of its own people. It is driven wholly by self preservation. Wholly. It may be that some individuals have convinced themselves that in a sort of utilitarian fashion it is all for the 'greater good' and that ultimately political union will provide the maximum amount of happiness for the maximum number of people. But to believe that would be to deny what we know about human nature. It would mean these people are not looking at what is happening to people in southern Europe, right now; and at the damage being done to northern Europe by uncontrolled mass migration.

Perhaps they are looking, and are ignoring. Whatever - it is about power, and self-preservation in the end.

ClaudiaApfelstrudel · 21/10/2016 11:34

Many remainers aren't naive, they're realistic and know only too well the strengths and weaknesses of the UK. They are the real patriots and want to see the best for our country.

Brexiteers want remainers to 'shut up' because they have no argument to make, it was a vote based purely on emotion and not on facts or reason.

smallfox2002 · 21/10/2016 11:35

Tin foil hats at the ready folks.

SapphireStrange · 21/10/2016 11:38

The EU isn't a 'body'. It is essentially a treaty organisation; members can opt into or out of anything. It is made up of elected leaders and representatives of member states.

WinchesterWoman · 21/10/2016 11:40

They are not realistic: they cannot see what is in front of their eyes.

Why would you say Brexits have no argument? Do you have a problem with reading posts by people who don't agree with you? Does it all glaze, leaving you able to say, no, nothing here, nothing to see, moving on? Or do you not understand the arguments?

Based on emotion my foot. When so many Remainers have a cotton candy Kumbaya-style faith in the altruism of a body that's shown itself to be anything but altruistic.

LurkingHusband · 21/10/2016 11:41

WinchesterWoman

I don't understand why any Remainers think these vindictive EU leaders were ever our friends

At the risk of requesting evidence, what remainers - either IRL, on this thread or in your head - have expressed an opinion where they feel the EU27 is being "vindictive" ?

Just to counter, I am a remainer, and I don't think they are. What they are being is pragmatic, and cautious, and looking out for the EU as well as their own country as the understand that as part of the EU, they are stronger together.

Now the UK has decided to leave the club of 28, it's hardly surprising we can't get arrested anymore.

Reading headlines about T. May stamping her immaculately chassuered feet and saying "But we want a say too" is too ludicrous to debate. And it's an early suggestion that the Brexiters fantasy that the EU would do exactly what the UK wants is just that - a fantasy. You think this is bad ? You ain't seen nothing yet. Just wait until the US weighs in with their self-interest ... cough Suez cough .

NathanBarleyrocks · 21/10/2016 11:43

If I had immigrated into this country and wasn't skilled, I would feel very unwelcome. Rightly so.