Does anyone else sense a change of mood re Brexit?

[twofingerstoGideon]

I was rather astounded following the referendum that politicians of all shades weren't making noises about Brexit needing parliamentary scrutiny etc., but at last - after almost four months - it's as if people are waking up, noticing the shambles and saying "Hang on a minute... I'm not sure we should be doing this..." It was shocking to see the lack of reaction to the xenophobia and the way politicians of all shades seemed to be saying we had to blindly obey the very slim majority. The lack of disgust expressed by the press/politicians about the barefaced lies used by the Leave campaign (not to mention that poster) was also mind-blowing.

Has anyone else noticed a change in the air? I'm starting to feel slightly hopeful for the first time since 24th June that the country isn't just going to jump off a cliff in order to follow 'the will of the people'.

Anyone else, or am I deluded?

You paint quite a picture Larry. How many nanny employing, bonus collecting remainers would you estimate we have here?

Larry's comment is so funny.

I'm sure there are sooooo many bonus-receiving-European-nanny-employing in Scotland to explain its overwhelming Remain vote

For the record I don't know anyone who employs a nanny (although my best friend in Wales did for about 15 years - but they were all English or Welsh). I know a couple of people who employ cleaners (my dad and my neighbours). Their cleaners are Scots.

Kaija,

At least a 100k or so. There are whole postcodes in London whose lives depend on this kind of set up.

Jaws,

In what sense reflected? Aside from on an investment bank trading floor, you are unlikely to see them publicly espoused. In the same way as middle class racists paint their views in other ways, as they know how they really feel is not really acceptable.

Pretty,

Read my post. I did not say ALL Remainers were like that. It is a minority. In the same sense as a minority of Brexiters are ignorant racists.

As I said, each side had a spectrum of views.

Scotland's vote is completely different. It is based on self interest (as, I guess, are most votes, really). Scotland is a huge net receiver of funds and knows it depends on being part of a larger block.

100k? Even if they ALL voted remain (although many of those won't have even had a vote being EU nationals), that's less that 1% of the remain vote.

This is some desperate horse shit.

On QT The woman was booed for claiming 52 % of voters in the referendum voted to discriminate against her personally and more generally to get rid of Polish people from the UK.
These were fairly unreasonable statements to my mind.

That would be like me saying 48% of Scots voted for independence from Westminster because they want rid of Mancunians.

I understood where she is coming from in a human way (she was also applauded at the end) but it was factually wrong and unfair to ascribe such motivations to 52% of voters.

That's not what she said. She said that was what it felt like. Which is not unreasonable at all.

more generally to get rid of Polish people from the UK

I can't keep up, sometimes we are told that the Leave vote was for the highest abstract ideals of democracy and sovereignty, how dare we ascribe any less noble motives? Then we are told, by our government no less, plus plenty of posters here, that the Leave vote was primarily about immigration and that's why FOM will be a red line even at a cost to the economy. And then we have a background of constant xenophobic rhetoric from our government and the media.

I feel that she was being a tad unreasonable. As I have been myself over the Scottish referendum. These things are felt personally yet in a civic sense they are not.

Yes quite, elements.

TheElements,

Trying to ascribe a single motivation to either side of the argument is grossly simplistic, as you well know. Different people voted for different reasons.

Different people voted for different reasons.

This is obvious and goes almost without saying. But given that we all agree with this, how can you defend the government's position that Brexit must be hard, because the British people voted to decrease immigration whatever the cost?

The obvious answer, if the "will of the people" is not clear (because everyone voted with different motives and with a different vision of brexit) would be to give the people an explicit choice, via a second referendum.

Misti,

For starters, I hope you realise that there is a huge gulf between what Theresa May is saying in public and private. We are in a high stakes game of poker and are hardly going to reveal our ultimate fall back provision.

On the other hand, I thin that you can confidently say that all leavers did vote for a different deal than the status quo ante but worse in every respect I.e at least some restrictions on free movement of people.

Can you think of a single reason to vote for a soft Brexit as opposed to remain?

Different people voted for different reasons.

This is obvious.

But if we're going to dance delicately around the motivations for the Leave vote, how are We* going to decide the how and what of actually Leaving the EU?

Some Leavers want to throw out everybody of immigrant stock and surround the country with barbed wire. Some want to welcome immigrants from all over the world and embrace an international network of trade and ideas. Some voted to give extra money to the NHS. Some voted to give Londoners a kicking. Some thought we would reopen shipyards and mines. Some are willing for other people to pay any price to achieve the dream. Some don't want to wreck the economy. Some believe that they can have everything they desire and it will come at no cost.

*actually You - not my circus, not my monkeys

Yes. It is mystifying that out of all the myriad, contradictory promises made by the Leave campaigns before the vote, all have now fallen away except for ending freedom of movement. Even more mystifying is that this is being touted as "the will of the people as though not 37%, not 52%, but 100% of people voted for this despite it appearing nowhere on the ballot paper.

"Can you think of a single reason to vote for a soft Brexit as opposed to remain?"

I cannot think of a single reason to vote for any Brexit as opposed to remain. But now we have to look for the least damaging solution.

Larry I assume you do not live in London or have any direct experience of the economy here, especially in terms of childcare. I do live in an affluent borough where a significant proportion work in the financial services industry. However the majority are not the stereotypical high rolling front office bankers on high bonuses (who certainly do not have to scrape to afford the £12 plus that an experienced qualified Nanney expects to earn) many more are employed in the back offices and in the many other sectors of the financial services industry. House prices are high so two working parents are the norm and the day nursery business is thriving, a working mother would expect to have to get their child on to a waiting list practically at conception and then to pay in excess of £300 per week (remembering that with commuting they will need it to be an 8 to 6 day, the site of a harassed parent sprinting from station to nursery around 6 is a common one). The same applies for an experienced childminder. Nannies can and therefore do command higher salaries. I do not know of anyone who would leave their child in the hands of someone without qualifications, experience and references so low pay really does not come into it.

Cleaners cost about the same at £11+ per hour.

In my direct experience you are talking stereotypical bollocks.......

This is not a minimum wage part of the economy.

People in affluent London boroughs are far more likely to be voting remain because they respect their EU colleagues, neighbours and friends.

Nah there are for more racist and xenophobic leavers than there are of the crowd larry identifies.

All you had to do was watch QT last night to feel the vibe, on my last trip to Hartlepool it seems to have become ok to be racist.

So what you are saying really is that you hope your wishes prevail over and above the result of the referendum.

Emotive nonsense like 'Jumping over a cliff' etc. is just sour grapes talk.

Blimey, many of you missed my point completely. If WE can see that Trump is full of lies and propaganda while his supporters think he sings the gospel, dont you think that the Leave campaign lied in similar ways and many were taken in by false claims similarly?

(But yes, Trump has a lot in common with Europen Right Wingers, that is true)

Why would another referendum at this point in time NOT be democracy, and NOT reflect the views of the nation?

Whatwould,

Funny, maybe we are neighbours...

The majority of people I know do employ either a cleaner or a nanny. You don't need to earn much to employ a cleaner for a few hours a week. Most senior back office staff could do that. As for nannies, again it is a mixed bag. I don't know anyone who employs a Norland nanny but, on the other hand, I know many who employ 'au pairs' as cheap nanny-come-cleaners.

Of course people who voted remain want that nice virtuous feeling of voting for the 'right reasons'. The reality is most vote for self interest. For the vast majority in financial services, the first and over abiding reason they voted remain was passporting rights.

Quintessential,

That argument could be used for any election at any time. We cannot be in a process of continuous polling!

We could, in the fullness of time, have another referendum. I think that if another party promised that and got voted in, that would be absolutely fair enough.

Just going back to Question time and the Polish lady. I was confused as I hadn't taken the reaction of the audience as had been booing her for speaking. So to have just listened to that part again and she clearly said that she felt unwelcome because she was no longer wanted by 52% of the voters, that is when she was booed . she was booed because she tried to suggest that 52% of the voters want all immigrants out. The UKIP woman tried to say that there was never any suggestion that all immigrants should leave and that we would want the Poles to stay , but she said that 52 % voted to get rid of immigrants and wanted rid of the Poles. She then went on to say how hard working the Poles are and how they do jobs that the Brits won't do. She was then clapped.
So not the racist audience some of you are trying to make out.