Does anyone else sense a change of mood re Brexit?

[twofingerstoGideon]

I was rather astounded following the referendum that politicians of all shades weren't making noises about Brexit needing parliamentary scrutiny etc., but at last - after almost four months - it's as if people are waking up, noticing the shambles and saying "Hang on a minute... I'm not sure we should be doing this..." It was shocking to see the lack of reaction to the xenophobia and the way politicians of all shades seemed to be saying we had to blindly obey the very slim majority. The lack of disgust expressed by the press/politicians about the barefaced lies used by the Leave campaign (not to mention that poster) was also mind-blowing.

Has anyone else noticed a change in the air? I'm starting to feel slightly hopeful for the first time since 24th June that the country isn't just going to jump off a cliff in order to follow 'the will of the people'.

Anyone else, or am I deluded?

drugs/chemicals/consumables, and that most of these are imported, scientific research is likely to become a lot more expensive due to the fall in the pound

YY bookworm I can attest to the large volume of specialist imported materials, equipment and consumables that are integral to scientific research.

Your entire post makes no sense. It makes perfect sense smallpox: the fact that you choose not to understand it is neither here nor there.

No I don't think that companies wanted to remain so that they could exploit people. I do. They want cheap, flexible, undemanding, non-unionised labour. They have a bottom line and cheap, flexible, undemanding, non-unionised labour has helped them maintain a very profitable bottom line for two decades. This situation may (I hope) no longer obtain and they don't want that change to come.

I certainly didn't avoid the question You did avoid the question two or three times: and you have answered it only in this post.

your use of "ordinary people" is merely rhetoric and is meaningless. what arrogant rubbish.

the ordinary people have been encouraged emotively to go along with a course of action that will end with them being devoured by the very things they sought to fight against. Absolutely not. This is disdainful, contemptuous and ignorant of motivations for voting leave.

This was a victory for the free marketeers against the bounds that have thus far managed to constrain them. This was a victory against free marketeers who will have to deal with a labour force that is more powerful than when cheap labour is in unlimited supply.

bolshy unlike Larry I work for an actual chemicals company (in strategic planning). I'm not sure what was being discussed (tl;dr) but for us the Brexit issue isn't so much about costs, since in broad terms the higher cost of commodities in dollars is offset once the manufactured goods are exported, but about non-tariff barriers and movement of people. There was a paper released this week about what the chemicals/pharma industries need Brexit to look like and unsurprisingly the main issues were remaining in the customs union, and recruitment/skills especially in R&D. My employer is already moving some R&D out of the UK, though this is not specifically a response to brexit, but to pre-brexit immigration controls.

A hard Brexit would be damaging to our export volumes because most of our UK production goes to the EU. We have plants in the US, Asia etc which manufacture for those markets.

Re negotiations, doesn't Boris speak french? Maybe they should bring in the services of ex attorney general Dominic Grieve, who unlike any of the three brexiteers, understands law and is a fluent french speaker. There are some competent and intelligent tories in parliament, but unfortunately very few in government.

Misti,

What a stupid and inflammatory start to your post.

Ad hominem attacks are the resort of people short of real arguments.

Misti: I have read previously about pharmaceuticals on the impact on production here. The natural impact of Brexit, combined with the now expected and pointless punitive approach, looks set to have a difficult impact.

These EU leaders are not our friends however: the fact that they have resolved to be punitive should surely show even the most ardent believers that they never were.

Misti,

Have you thought of offering your expert services to the government? I think it could be the ultimate solution.

Larry have you read the Chemical Industries Association paper that was published this week? www.cia.org.uk/Newsroom/PressReleases/PressRelease/tabid/114/pwnid/239/Default.aspx

Misti,

I don't think I have professed a particular expertise in the chemical industry.

Is mumsnet what strategic planners call blue sky thinking?

These EU leaders are not our friends however: the fact that they have resolved to be punitive should surely show even the most ardent believers that they never were.

Did anyone claim they were ? Or - more to the point - that their "friendship" was in and of itself a reason to vote Remain ? I certainly don't recall that.

The situation is more akin to an office, where 28 people are colleagues - they know they have to work as a team to keep the company going. When one person leaves - to set up a competitor business - they may say "all the best" on the leaving card, but that will be that. I would never expect a colleague in that situation to say "you know that contract we're bidding on, why not throw it so the UK can have it instead". And anyone who does expect that is thick beyond description.

It's a short paper Larry, written in very plain english (actually quite bad english in places ... But that's chemists for you lol).

The point being that I don't really get drawn into arguments about the impact on the City, except in very general terms, because I don't work for a bank and the part of the city that I have most experience of (commodity trading) isn't really affected by brexit. My company's trading desk is not going to move to Frankfurt. OTOH, if the discussion turns to the impact on chemicals and pharma (an industry I have worked in for more than a quarter of a century) then one would hope I might have something relevant to say!

WW believed that staying in the EU makes us more at risk of continued "cheap, flexible, undemanding, non-unionised labour. They have a bottom line and cheap, flexible, undemanding, non-unionised labour" and that "This situation may (I hope) no longer obtain and [EU supporting companies] don't want that change to come."

....and the Brexit supporters say that Remain voters are naive

So ww you make European workers sound very undemanding and ignorant, inferior to UK more knowing workers. Another misconception that you choose to have, as many of us here are "EU labour".

We don't need to leave the EU to have cheap, non-unionised, 'flexible', i.e. zero hours contracts, labour. We have that already. I somehow doubt that Germany does.

And the EU are drafting legislation in order to tackle the problem of zero hours contracts. So potentially EU countries will not have these contracts and UK will...

I'm afraid it's worse than 'all the best' on a leaving card - and everyone knows this. It's 'how dare you leave, we will do everything we can to make sure you and your family end in penury so that no one else leaves this office'.

Yes Pretty: and I still do. Unlimited supply of anything will drive down its price. I'm not sure why that's naive. Why don't you go and rewrite the laws of economics if you've five minutes spare.

Where did I say European workers are ignorant?

Many European workers are cheaper because the costs in their home countries are lower - for example of houses, of land. Is this something you deny? They're also cheaper because they can come to work on an ad hoc basis while retaining a base in their home country. There is little doubt about the conditions some live in here. Even if they aren't living in poor conditions, there is often no family to accommodate. UK minimum wage is several times the minimum wage in their native country and there is little pressure to demand a 'living' wage or pay rises, thus reducing unionisation and campaigns.

You may be a very different kind of EU worker here: but I'm sure it won't surprise you that not everyone enjoys your higher standard of living. At least - I hope not.

I wouldn't bring Germany into it. With a declining population they were hoping to massively exploit the migration crisis. Sadly most of those arriving have neither the literacy or the skills to be anything but supported.

I think zero hours contracts should be banned. We don't need the EU to ban zero hours contracts. Perhaps in 2020 we can elect a Labour government which will do that.

WW They want cheap, flexible, undemanding, non-unionised labour. They have a bottom line and cheap, flexible, undemanding, non-unionised labour has helped them maintain a very profitable bottom line for two decades. This situation may (I hope) no longer obtain and they don't want that change to come

you might be interested in this fact
fullfact.org/law/zero-hours-contracts-uk-europe/

When I say banned: I mean they shouldn't be forced on people. I have read about some people who prefer a freelance/zero hours approach, but these are never exclusively tied to one employer. They like freelance/zero hours because it gives them freedom.

What should be banned are those exclusive zero hours contracts where the non-employee has no power at all. As a start, every zero hours worker should be cast as an 'employee' under workers' rights legislation. That could end the zero hours trend without an outright ban being needed.

I've said zero hours should be banned. I agree with you. What's your problem?

Jaws I wonder how long it will be before the usual huddle and bitch-fest. Perhaps tin foil hats will be mentioned or twinsets. Would you like me to go away for about ten minutes so you can get it out of your system.

Oh Dear, WW. You seem very muddled. Leave German labour relations out of it, because it doesn't fit your narrative. Although Theresa May was making some noises about having worker reps on Company boards, as I believe Germany does. We haven't heard anymore of that - just a nice soundbite. Both Germany and ourselves have aging populations, and have the same need for younger workers to support us.

I'm afraid it's worse than 'all the best' on a leaving card - and everyone knows this. It's 'how dare you leave, we will do everything we can to make sure you and your family end in penury so that no one else leaves this office'.

It's not though. It's like a group of children playing and being dictated to by the bossy child - you always have to play the game they want, they have to be allowed to win, or if they don't win they get mardy. Finally when the other kids have had enough and say - go on then, we don't want to play anymore, the bossy kid starts screaming oh it's not fair, they won't let me play.

Peregrina: I think Germany is the bossy child in the scenario you describe. For example, unilaterally suspending the Dublin Agreement because it suited them - despite the impact on Greece, Italy and other transit nations. They don't get mardy when they aren't allowed to win because - well - they're never allowed to lose. Watch what happens over Deutche Bank: will they sacrifice principle for political gain, and bail it out? Will they offer themselves benefits they never offered the Greeks?

And I take the continued repetition of ad hominem attacks and insults as a mark of grudging respect: you simply have to resort to them because your arguments are getting thinner and thinner.

If your arguments are so strong, you don't need the ad hominen and the sneering. I wonder if you are brave and confident enough to stop.