Does anyone else sense a change of mood re Brexit?

[twofingerstoGideon]

I was rather astounded following the referendum that politicians of all shades weren't making noises about Brexit needing parliamentary scrutiny etc., but at last - after almost four months - it's as if people are waking up, noticing the shambles and saying "Hang on a minute... I'm not sure we should be doing this..." It was shocking to see the lack of reaction to the xenophobia and the way politicians of all shades seemed to be saying we had to blindly obey the very slim majority. The lack of disgust expressed by the press/politicians about the barefaced lies used by the Leave campaign (not to mention that poster) was also mind-blowing.

Has anyone else noticed a change in the air? I'm starting to feel slightly hopeful for the first time since 24th June that the country isn't just going to jump off a cliff in order to follow 'the will of the people'.

Anyone else, or am I deluded?

This Brexit is soooooo complicated and there are so many variables and NOBODY KNOWS what is going to happen seems to come out at very convenient junctures.

We've had "Just invoke Article 50. We are Leaving. Simples."
We've had "The rest of the world are gagging to talk to us."
We've had "Germany because BMW, Italy because prosecco."
We've had any number of confident declarations that "We will get more lucrative trade deals."
We've had "There will be more money for the NHS and science and manufacturing and unicorns."
We've had "This will reinvigorate manufacturing and export, I have no idea what of, but I just know this will happen."
We've had "EU citizens will be allowed to stay indefinitely for sure."

And then if there are too many objections being raised, suddenly it's uncertainty and complication as far as the eye can see .

The elements,

None of the prior quotes came from me. I am not sure of your point. I don't agree with a lot of simplistic Brexit views. I am actually very torn myself on the whole issue.

But I am sure if I had the time or interest to trawl through all the threads I could find contradictory statements among the ardent remainers. Proving what?

Larry There are a number of measures that TM could take to reassure the future of British Science, one would be to undertake to match the G8 norm of investing 3% of GDP in Science (it is as I have said 1.7% ) All there has been are fine words at conference and a nice letter to Paul Nurse. As others have said the brain drain has started, scientists and other academics have left or are leaving, recent developments in terms of the NHS can only accelerate the number of doctors and nurses going abroad (even if they can indenture them which is by no means certain for four years after training). Some of the recent Nobel prize winners have been very vocal about the fact that they do not regard post Brexit Britain as somewhere they would want to return to.

You might like to look further at that "biased" site, it is a thoughtful response to the situation our Scientist find themselves in, as full of sound research and information as you would expect from academics thrust into a situation by political developments. It is not guided by dogma or spinning reality to fit the desired political objective You might learn a lot, I certainly have. I am not a Scientist but I know one rather well and this is very much a common response from the Science community. It strikes me as very sad that a group that were formally held in esteem and are certainly not in it for money or even much in the way of glory (I doubt even a Nobel prize puts you in the global elite and invited to those secret power networking summits) are being betrayed by this process

Was 'the will of the people' to see a hard Brexit, soft Brexit, freedom of movement, no immigration, better control of immigration?

Or was it to see the weekly millions diverted from Brussels to the NHS?

Bit of a cow: remain altruism is sentimental: it relies on faith in the altruism of institutions, politicians Eurocrats and corporate bodies. I have no such faith. You can choose to believe; I assume you do. This despite evidence piled high that it does not exist. A bit like religion, really.

What would,

I will take a look in more detail later. I am peripherally involved in science these days (teacher) and I did study it. I am also still a little connected to my old Cambridge college, so I am not unaware of the general feeling.

However I also think that, even among experts, there is a tendency to risk aversion. I think any analysis based on assumptions of there being noteplacemenr of eu funding are flawed. If that did not happen, it would be a disaster. I thought TM had pledged to at least match it.

And if I hear one more Brexiter say we needs to forge stronger links with the US

One view of the history of the 20th century is the US repeatedly dumping on the UK from a great height.

From lend-lease (remember the US made a profit out of WW2) through to shutting the door on UK atomic weapons research, Suez, the Falklands, you would have thought the UK would have learned that we aren't that big a deal to the US. Nice to have around, but not really essential to the party.

Especially now we have turned our back on Europe.

Only essential to the US party when they can trot out the 'Special relationship' e.g. they want us to back them in military operations.

None of the prior quotes came from me.

I must have totally imagined a series of posts on this board in which you said we will export more than we import, but (when pressed) you had no idea what.

If that did not happen, it would be a disaster. I thought TM had pledged to at least match it.

IIRC the pledge was to match/promise funding until 2020, which as I understand it is money that has already been allocated anyway. After that, who knows, but it seems rather unlikely that the magic money tree will be able to fund the extra doctors to get rid of foreign ones and the NHS and Cornwall and Sunderland and Ebbw Vale and the mines and the shipyards and schools and research and development etc etc, all on a shrunken economy and reduced tax take.

The elements,

No one can pledge anything indefinitely into the future. Has the EU guaranteed any funding beyond 2020?

You never quoted the quote you are now attributing to me, which was to do with gbp devaluation and I stand by. You cannot misquote your own post as evidence of what I said.

Your bitterness is neither going to win you friends or influence. If you want to be involved in how it plays out, get involved. Whining about the stupidity of what has happened is entirely counterproductive.

I would love to say yes to the op but...
A polish woman being booed on newsnight when talking about the prejudice she faces;
Gary lineker being harassed on twitter for showing sympathy with refugees;
The new mp for batley and spen being heckled whilst giving her victory speech by far right morons
So...no
I think the racists and far right now feel they can go public with their vile views
What they used to only say behind closed doors is now very much out in the open

larry

O-kay then .

larry Given that much research (especially medical research) involves the use of a large amount of drugs/chemicals/consumables, and that most of these are imported, scientific research is likely to become a lot more expensive due to the fall in the pound. So even if the government continues to match eu funding after 2020, we will get a lot less research for our money.

larry, I recall exactly what theekements is referring to as it was a reply to a question I asked you. You said

Bear, You seem to believe we are a totally non innovative stuck economy. I have no idea what we will export but there will be a lot of business people seeing this devaluation as a chance to build and grow export businesses.

So you really can't deny any of the prior quotes came from you.

Badders123

yes they do seem to feel they can spew their hatred out freely now but the by-election results last night were terrible for them. I think they are slowly becoming exposed for what they are, a very vocal and loud minority of thugs ,fueled by the Brexit vote and the Murdoch press who are drowning out the reasonable people's voice.

WW "evidence pilled high" well I've been reading these threads and they have been a real education. Areas like science funding, econmics, passporting in the City, issues that are not at the forefront of my skill base (understatement).

I may not be an expert in these topics but I can spot a well reasoned, evidenced, considered argument when I see one. I do know about political institutions and how they work.

On balance the evidence is 'pilled high' clearly and unquestionably against Brexit. I would also not presume to tell others why they are motivated to think and act in a certain way. That is just plain wrong.

Larry The Facebook page is good too,although perhaps more campaigning.

Bear,

This is so kafkaesque. The elements typed a post not containing that quote. I have never denied saying that and stand by it. Now, in your opinion, I have to accept a number of other things I never said.

I really hope you are not a judge!

Badders123, yep just that. I suppose if they are out in the open you at least know where they are and who they are.

A Jamaican friend of mine was saying the only positive about Brexit is he now knows who the racists are so he can avoid them.

Bolshy,

It depends whether they match it in Euro or Gbp terms. It is a global market so I hope Euro terms (or even usd terms).

I think Ive just entered a parallel universe

larry in your post at 15.24 you said you hadn't said any of the things in elements post of 15.01.

Ok, it was paraphrased but you did say exports would increase but that you'd no idea what those exports would actually be.

A Jamaican friend of mine was saying the only positive about Brexit is he now knows who the racists are so he can avoid them.

Sad echoes of when I first met MrsLD, who said in a way, being diagnosed with MS was an odd blessing, because it jettisoned faux "friends".

It does support the old adage that "A friend in need is a pest"

I guess so...
Maybe it's always been like this and I just didn't realise?
God I'm depressed

Sorry larry, I have no idea what that means as I am a scientist, not an economist , so apologies if what follows is nonsense. It is a global market and this might work for the big suppliers of plastics and chemicals. However, many of the more expensive products are produced by (relatively) small companies in the states, Europe and Japan. We pay for these in their native currency, and I'd be surprised if they lowered prices just for the uk.

Apparently Barnier wants the Brexit negotiations carried out in French. Not a good start!