Does anyone else sense a change of mood re Brexit?

[twofingerstoGideon]

I was rather astounded following the referendum that politicians of all shades weren't making noises about Brexit needing parliamentary scrutiny etc., but at last - after almost four months - it's as if people are waking up, noticing the shambles and saying "Hang on a minute... I'm not sure we should be doing this..." It was shocking to see the lack of reaction to the xenophobia and the way politicians of all shades seemed to be saying we had to blindly obey the very slim majority. The lack of disgust expressed by the press/politicians about the barefaced lies used by the Leave campaign (not to mention that poster) was also mind-blowing.

Has anyone else noticed a change in the air? I'm starting to feel slightly hopeful for the first time since 24th June that the country isn't just going to jump off a cliff in order to follow 'the will of the people'.

Anyone else, or am I deluded?

What would,

Ahh, a clearly unbiased link...

Still larry the general consensus is that being outside the EU is not a great move for British science funding.

Also as ouyr ability to be at the forefront of science and R and D has been one of our competitive advantages, any cuts or falls in funding, or changes to our collaborative relationships may diminish that.

The problem is Larry, since the leave vote sterling has been in a steady decline, not a one off dip.

We can see recently that the world and manufacturers are now starting to look at Britain as less favorably in an economic sense, this is the start of the snowball - food prices and product prices have started to go up.

Cost of living increases and poor working conditions lead to things like brain drain (where people educated here go overseas as working/living conditions are better) (think GP crisis)

Companies then start looking to see if U.K. Is worth investing in due to the fact they cannot get staff.

This may be over simplified, but it's as simple as asking where that £350m for the NHS is coming from.

To give an idea of how bad this is, one of the leave powerhouses has written about how disastrous leaving the EU may be.

The 'general consensus' is not the truth, it is just opinion. In my opinion Theresa May seems to have grasped that to survive on our own we will need to lure the best and brightest here.

She is alluding to an industrial/scientific strategy where government would target specific key industries/research and incentivise them.

As you say above, though, this could be a victory for real capitalism (which I would applaud). What we have at the moment is the worst of all worlds, very little return in risk capital (look at the stock market over the last15 years) but a group of pampered employees being able to pay themselves a fortune.

i Ahh, a clearly unbiased link...

It's those damned experts again, larry can only believe things written by avowed non-experts. Dear me, how are we ever to square this circle?

I would offer my own personal opinion as a scientist but then I'm biased and have expertise.

TheElements,

Would you like me to post the link to the scientists who were pro Brexit. Equally high calibre, equally expert. Are you going to believe them or suddenly pretend they are somehow lesser experts?

scientistsforbritain.uk/wordpress/

Well I might as well.

larry Who on earth is stopping you from posting all manner of glorification to Brexit? And then we can examine the qualifications , merits and arguments put forward and address them?

You are the one who likes to call people who disagree with Brexit "lesser experts".

Nope,

You must be mixing me up with someone else.

Brexit is not something that can be solved like a second order differential equation. Firstly the system is too chaotic with too many variables. Secondly, the optimal outcome depends on your personal value set and priorities.

I think it is really important to understand both sides of the argument if we can ever build bridges between the two sides.

Sadly most can only see this as a simple problem which we got 'wrong' and should have another go at.

LarryGrylls, they are far far fewer in number.

And rather interesting that they don't seem to have posted anything since 11th June, when they came out with this gem:

"On leaving the EU there will be more than enough funding available (from the hundreds of millions of pounds we send to Europe every week) to increase the UK science budget"

A comment that has not aged well.

Possibly,

But no less expert. Should we put the experts on a mass balance and go with the side that tips down, then?

Larry, scientists for Britain's analysis refuses to take into account that we wouldn't have full access to EU funding and collaborative partnerships, as we know this is not the case then I think their analysis can be discounted.

"But no less expert. Should we put the experts on a mass balance and go with the side that tips down, then?"

Well it's certainly a much bigger differential than 48/52

What you you think? If 9 doctors diagnose cancer and 1 says it's indigestion, what are you going to go with?

You must be mixing me up with someone else.

Nope.

Brexit is not something that can be solved like a second order differential equation. Firstly the system is too chaotic with too many variables. Secondly, the optimal outcome depends on your personal value set and priorities.

As far as I can see, the only people who are making out that Brexit is in any way uncomplicated, are those who most fervently support it. And again you are stating the obvious that people have different preferences based on their personal circumstances - this does not preclude us from drawing wider conclusions as to the benefits or otherwise of changing situations.

I have looked at your link (in fact I have looked at it before, back before the referendum). I have read their arguments. You will not be surprised that I disagree with their conclusions. You may or may not be surprised to know that the vast majority of scientists and academics are pro-Remain. I suppose this is evidence that scientists are out-of-touch ivory towered know-nothing elitists (except for the ones who were pro-Brexit).

Kaija,

That is a poor analogy as every doctor should be a cancer expert and cancer is a defined problem with limited variables.

Also one Hawking trumps almost all others :)

That's not exactly a list of eminent scientists, is it? Seems to be mainly PhD students and politicians with some lab experience. Maybe 2 professors?

It speaks volumes if that's all the support they can muster from the thousands of scientists in this country.

Who would you put your faith in- an odd bod physics phd student* or Sir Paul Nurse?

*I'm a biologist so tend to think all physicists are odd

It seems even a national treasure like Gary Lineker isn't safe from the mob who have hijacked Brexit as if it were some Nazi putz.

In my opinion Theresa May seems to have grasped that to survive on our own we will need to lure the best and brightest here.

That's only your opinion though. She needs more than fine words. I have seen no evidence myself. How about trying to keep the brightest and best that we already have to stay here? At the moment, we are heamorrhaging medical staff to Australia and New Zealand. What is she doing about that? Apart from Hunt announcing a plan to have 1,500 more medical school places, so that we could become more self-sufficient (and get rid of those nasty furriners.)

It speaks volumes if that's all the support they can muster from the thousands of scientists in this country.

Exactly - although I wasn't initially going to say anything about larry's "equally high calibre, equally expert" supporters of Brexit. But now that he/she is claiming equal weight of importance from (generously) 20% of pro-Brexit academics compared to the vast majority who wanted to Remain...

(All very ironic when we are constantly reminded that 52/48 is the overwhelming will of the people!)

Brexiteers have to keep reminding us of the 52-48 because it's the only thing they have. Our country is falling apart before our eyes and they're in denial about what they have done

Yy elements.

But then the number 52 seems to have acquired all sorts of transcendental qualities lately.

What will attract the brightest and the best to the uk? Funding, quality of living, prestige and access to international research networks. Brexit is likely to reduce ALL of these. May can say what she likes about attracting talent but she can't change reality. No-one will come on the basis of her words- the brain drain has already started.

And if I hear one more Brexiter say we needs to forge stronger links with the US 😂 The US is notoriously nepotistic when it comes to research, that's the reason we made European networks in the first place.