Does anyone else sense a change of mood re Brexit?

[twofingerstoGideon]

I was rather astounded following the referendum that politicians of all shades weren't making noises about Brexit needing parliamentary scrutiny etc., but at last - after almost four months - it's as if people are waking up, noticing the shambles and saying "Hang on a minute... I'm not sure we should be doing this..." It was shocking to see the lack of reaction to the xenophobia and the way politicians of all shades seemed to be saying we had to blindly obey the very slim majority. The lack of disgust expressed by the press/politicians about the barefaced lies used by the Leave campaign (not to mention that poster) was also mind-blowing.

Has anyone else noticed a change in the air? I'm starting to feel slightly hopeful for the first time since 24th June that the country isn't just going to jump off a cliff in order to follow 'the will of the people'.

Anyone else, or am I deluded?

Felas,

I agree. I think leaving is not a foregone conclusion. There are many European elections soon and, if the structure of the Eu changes (limits in free movement generally), then there is every excuse for another referendum.

Personally I think the federalists in Europe look quite week, mostly dominated by those major global powerhouses: Belgium and Luxembourg.

Smallfox: do you agree or not? It's not hard

Charities and university were protecting their own pockets. The NHS is as much a corporate body as any other: and wishes to continue to fully enjoy and exploit cheap labour just like any other corporate body.

I'm afraid contempt has been dripping from so many posts on this thread. Contempt and disdain for ordinary people.

I can't possibly agree with you WW, your posts are utterly counterfactual and hyperbolic.

They got a massive swing in Witney last night
Which is completely expected in a by election tbh.

Not with a supposedly popular government, it's not.

We are ordinary people WW, that's another post truth appeal to emotion.

Saying that its about "ordinary people" and trying to dress it up as some sort of democratic revolution for the little guy when the leave campaign was fronted by an Eton and Oxford educated Bullingdon club member, the Lord Chancellor, a former Tory leader, and a privately educated for ex trader and backed newspapers owned by Two billionaire tax haven resident knights of the realm, a non dom hereditary peer, and a billionaire media mogul ( who inherited the start of his empire), is utterly post truth.

You are really deluded if you think that the normal and ordinary people will benefit from brexit, the entire point of it all was to become more venial and capitalist. It is the very essence of shock doctrine in order to be able to promote Friedman'/Hayek style free market policies.

Go read some Chomsky.

WW- "Contempt and disdain for ordinary people"

You really need to be less emotional and sentimental about ' ordinary people'.

We are ordinary people WW,

There's nothing ordinary about Mumsnetters

Actually Larry is right: I (and all my friends don't know any Leave voters) did indeed vote Remain out of Self-Interest.

Only in our opinion, the self-interest was/is that it was in the best interests of the UK to stay in the UK.

Personally, in as much as it affects me, Brexit if anything will have a positive effect (except that going on holiday is now more expensive and petrol prices are going up): it makes dh's job in inward investment more secure (contract due to run out next year), as attracting inward investment is already becoming more of a challenge - and we'll need all that we can get. (Suspect most of it for a while will just be relocations from other parts of the UK ); and we have a tiny mortgage and large savings, so interest rate rises will (technically) benefit us. Amazingly I would still vote Remain.

And even though a hard Brexit causing a drastic negative impact on the UK's economy would help the case for Scottish Independence, I still wouldn't wish that on FUKD. There are too many people who would be hurt - while the richest just get richer from the chaos.

I remember when Scotland voted on the ability to vary tax rates by up to 3p back in 1997, Marti Pellow was asked about it on R2. He said that everyone recognised that it would only ever be used to increase taxation and even though he was one of the ones who would be hit, he was happy to vote for it, so that we could have the sort of society that cared for those that needed it. Scotland did indeed vote in favour of the tax varying powers. People are prepared to be altruistic - but more importantly, people can choose to see the bigger picture.

The Mayo clinic definition of narcissistic personality disorder "Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism."

Everything about Trumps observed behaviour points to this as a diagnosis. Do you deny that he has an extreme, actually comical, over reaction to any criticism. He is obsessed with the size of his hands and how that relates to his penis size.

Do you deny that his comments about women over a long period of time betray deep misogyny? Did you watch the Apprentice, I could only bear to watch one episode, it was horrific, he leared at and patronised women who had actually been reasonably successful in a management task (certainly in comparison with the pantomime characters you get in the UK version of the show). He made comments on their personal appearance and his decision on who won made no sense in management and leadership terms.

If Trump were subject to U.K. laws on probity and ethics in business he would not be allowed to run a business (multiple bankruptcies, the laws on unfair competition, discriminatory business practises) let alone the country, and that in a country where Sir Phillip Green managed to stay on the right side of the law. He has taken full advantage of the Corporate culture and the protection afforded to corporations by the legal and political framework in the US.

As I say this is not relativist, it is not a matter of whether he is least worst, he is simply unfit.

But if you claim to be altruistic you are naive. Doing, saying or voting with the best interest of others in mind is beyond the comprehension of some Brexiters.

The appropriation of the term "ordinary people" has a long history, in particular in totalitarian regimes from communism to fascism. Now it has been used ad nauseam by a privately educated elite of millionaires and being lapped up by many as gospel, and repeated like a mantra as an answer to any criticism. Who are the ordinary people and how do you identify them ww?

The fact that the pound has dropped 19percebt and is at an all time low should make some people wake up, but they haven't.

Brexit which is supposedly going to galvanize British people, looks as if it is going to do the opposite.

Scotland is likely to vote in a second referendum, and there would seem to be more of a shift towards leaving U.K. If brexit goes ahead.

Northern Ireland seems to be going to be a bone of contention. It looks like a hard border may go back in there again - some U.K. Politicians are saying that won't happen, however Europe could force a hard border on Ireland for people coming from the U.K. Any interference with the border the way it is could set the peace process back years, indeed parts of the Good Friday agreement are reliant on Europe and European institutions. A return to violence in Northern Ireland could end up costing the UK taxpayer a hell of a lot of money.

Not with a supposedly popular government, it's not.

It's very difficult interpret last night's vote. I agree that the swings look surprising, given a Tory advantage in the national opinion polls of around 20 points. OTOH, that 20 point advantage is national. The Witney constituency is rather atypical, nationally - there can't be that many Tory constituencies which voted remain.

So (as a Lib Dem member) not sure if it was a "good" result or not - it certainly wasn't bad but I'm not sure it was as good as it looks.

Oxford West and Abingdon also voted Remain, as did our Tory MP, but she rather seems to have forgotten that now. I agree, it's probably not quite as good as it looks, because the Cameron factor won't happen elsewhere.

WinchesterWoman

You are dodging the issue again. This is about the impact of Brexit on the ability of the UK market to compete globally.

The collaborative and other networks that Science and technology have benefitted from within the EU are all about working with the rest of the world to deliver progress and opportunity, the whole point is that being open to Europe and the rest of the world generates a sum that is greater than the parts. It is exactly why the U.K. has managed to maintain competitive advantage whilst investing only 1.7% of GDP in Science and technology (compared with 3% by the rest of the G8) Our Scientists, engineers and universities are already highlighting the damage that is being done by being sidelined from EU and global projects and the brain drain that has already started even before the actual terms of Brexit are known. This research underpins the competitive edge we have in the tech industries in the world economy, plenty of world economies have cost effective manufacturing bases so that is how we compete and it is now being undermined.

The financial services industry generates a £60bn surplus for the economy, £70bn if you include other service industries, 78% of GDP. Estimates are that around 20% of that trade will be lost with the loss of the EU passport, buyers of those services such as China and other Asian economies are very clear that they want to trade with the EU as a whole and that they will move their business away from the City to a EU hub if the City cannot fulfill that function. Their priority is the EU. That is going to cause a lot of damage to the UK economy, to tax receipts and its ability to compete in the world economy.

How is Britain going to compete globally when it has damaged its sources of competitive advantage?

'The fact that the pound has dropped 19percebt and is at an all time low should make some people wake up, but they haven't.'

I have no idea why people are so obsessed with Sterling. A one off fall (as opposed to a continous slide) is very positive for the economy and a little inflation is also positive.

What happened to the Euro during the Eurozone debt crisis? I think it was worse, at least for a while. I did not see many threads on here saying that the EU was a failing superstate (although it is).

WhatwouldRonDo

'The collaborative and other networks that Science and technology have benefitted from within the EU'

Except they are not EU managed and include countries such as Israel amongst others.

Smallfox: you're just avoiding the question.

From your response to mine I can only assume you agree on the motivations of those corporate bodies who were campaigning to remain. Given the focus of their campaign it's obvious that they themselves believed that Brexit would reduce their exploitative opportunities.

Ordinary people means ordinary people. I am not co-opting it. You;re just dying to deny that you feel disdain for them.

Mine is a pragmatic altruism: my eyes are open.

"I have no idea why people are so obsessed with Sterling. A one off fall (as opposed to a continous slide) is very positive for the economy and a little inflation is also positive. "

So you think that rising food and fuel prices, when many are struggling already, will have no negative impact?

Ahhh right.

Brexit = pragmatic altruism because you say so.
Remain = naive and sentimental because you say so.

OK I can see why you would vote Trump.

I am no economist.

I think the general (not on MN) obsession with Sterling is because it is something tamgible people actually understand.

I 'get' a fall in the pound some of the wider economic points hurt my head.

Larry That is true, but as with the economy there are layers of Brexit and as with the economy even a soft, or as others have highlighted, sensible (rather than chaotic) Brexit, then "First the UK would have no control over EU research policy and strategy. Second, the aim of much research is to lead to development and through the “valley of death” to innovation. Passage through this valley will be far easier if attempted using research infrastructure that is as standardised and integrated as possible. The UK may well find itself, if outside the EU, arriving with European partners at the valley of death but then being left to cross that valley on its own and on its own resources. The delay and cost would result in the EU27 collecting the spoils. This is the dilemma that non-EU countries do not recognise at their peril."

More here scientistsforeu.uk/2016/08/science-and-brexit-time-to-be-better-europeans/"

WW? Your entire post makes no sense.

No I don't think that companies wanted to remain so that they could exploit people.

I certainly didn't avoid the question, your use of "ordinary people" is merely rhetoric and is meaningless.

I told you exactly what I think will happen too. This is not a victory of ordinary people, this is a Walrus and Carpenter situation, the ordinary people have been encouraged emotively to go along with a course of action that will end with them being devoured by the very things they sought to fight against.

This was a victory for the free marketeers against the bounds that have thus far managed to constrain them.