Solely UK citizens post Brexit ...

[LurkingHusband]

Is it possible that post-Brexit, people who only hold UK citizenship could be at a disadvantage when compared to people who hold UK and a.n.other EU citizenship ?

I'm vaguely considering a post-Brexit where visas or work permits are required for UK citizens to work in the EU, meaning employers (in particular US or Asian) would prefer a dual-national over a pure UK one.

Looking forward to a robust discussion

Chatting with some colleagues, they all felt it would be a situation which simply cannot develop. But at the same time, they also conceded it may be out of the UK control. (Which rather sours the whole "taking back control" mantra).

There is an MEP, can't remember which country but non UK, who is proposing to the EU parliament that UK citizens who want to could get an EU passport.

Yes that MEP is from Luxembourg. His name is Charles Goerens. He is trying to help Remainers. It would be great if Mumsnetters liked his posts on Facebook and Twitter. The debate on his proposals is happening quicky, in 72 hours time. We need to show him more support than is the case at present!

I am so saddened that the 'right on' liberal lefties are so vociferous about their rights to travel work and live in Europe that they are prepared to throw the rest of the |UK (who will never have any such opportunities) on the scrap heap.
Talk about selfish remain voters - MN seems populated with a certain type who fail to see that opportunities and nice jobs should be available to all - are we not all equal?

Sorry you are sad mollie123, but I really don't see how a proposal that is open to ALL those UK citizens who would want it is throwing anyone on the scrap heap.

Ironically, Brexiters would be able to apply for Associate membership too.

Anyway my messages were addressed to Remain voters asking them to show some support for a rare person who is prepared to speak for the forgotten 48%.

At least we can agree that the whole referendum has set us on the path to being a scrap heap....

It's also not hypocritical. Hypocritical would be an anti-FOM Leaver doing it just wait. That's as distinct from a Leaver full stop, since some of them were and are pro FOM. But as I said upthread, if the plight of low income British citizens denied their FOM rights has suddenly, magically, coincidentally started to concern you several months after you voted to jeopardise them, you can always start a fund for them if you like...

mollie123

If Leavers wanted those rights surely they would have voted Remain, they clearly don't want them and it seems they also want to take them away from UK citizens who desperately do want to keep them.

Dual nationality here, and thank fuck for it. My DD wants to go to university in Europe. She is still going to be able to do that.

I am so glad I am not just a British citizen.

I think most people who voted to leave are not exactly the types to want to live and work in another EU country TBH.

However when their annual holiday to Benidorm starts to become much more costly, with the need for visas etc, I think it might begin to hit home somewhat

Mollie I am saddened that you feel being in the EU puts you at a disadvantage and for many people who have never moved away from their home town or county it must seem a bit alien that other people lead more diverse and cosmopolitan lives. However you are mistaken to blame the UK being a EU member on your experience of being disadvantaged. It is rather the lack of social mobility fostered by conservatives, age old class divide and underfunding of education that are to blame. All of which will get much worse if there is a 'hard Brexit'.

mollie123

I have re-read your post a few times, and it seems a little confusing ...

I am so saddened that the 'right on' liberal lefties are so vociferous about their rights to travel work and live in Europe

These are rights which are currently under threat. There is a possibility they could be removed from UK citizens who do not possess another EU nationality. I think people are entitled to be vociferous when they stand to lose something they perceive to be of value.

that they are prepared to throw the rest of the |UK (who will never have any such opportunities) on the scrap heap.

So you believe that people who wish to remain wish to do so at the advantage of those that don't ? Or do I misunderstand ? One thing I think all remainers wish for is to see all UK citizens better off. I know I do.

Talk about selfish remain voters - MN seems populated with a certain type who fail to see that opportunities and nice jobs should be available to all - are we not all equal?

Again, I'm not picking up your meaning. Where has it been suggested - and by whom - that remainers are in any way seeking an advantage over leavers ?

Some remainers (and some leavers, by the way) would find themselves with an advantage if (as is now clearly happening) there are roles where UK+EU citizenship is considered preferable to sole UK citizenship. But that "advantage" is one that remainers were willing to lose by asking the UK stay in the EU. It is an advantage that the Leave process will have given them - you could say "gifted" them. And if some people who voted leave are upset with that, then frankly it's hard to find sympathy. (Again) it's not as if they weren't warned.

Responding to the nice - but I feel doomed - suggestion that the EU may extend some sort of EU-lite FOM to UK citizens. Lovely though this idea is - and a testament to the affection within Europe from country to country - I can't see it being countenanced by any Brexit-bound government. Especially given how Theresa May has set out.

If such a scheme were to be devised (and let's be frank, this is the EU, so it might be available in 2050) I am sure - out of pure spite - the UK would find a way to frustrate it. Probably passing a law making it illegal, or declaring the EU a proscribed political organisation.

I admit I am struggling to understand mollie's post. Is she admitting that there will be downsides (jobs, movement etc) to not being a member of the EU and/or losing EU citizenship a.k.a. Leaving? And yet it is the fault of Remainers if these downsides come to pass?

I am so saddened that the 'right on' liberal lefties are so vociferous about their rights to travel work and live in Europe that they are prepared to throw the rest of the |UK (who will never have any such opportunities) on the scrap heap

You're asking for solidarity? Not a fucking chance.

I voted for what I thought is best for EVERYONE. You did the same, I hope. Que sera.

Absolutely I think all vociferous remain stances are born from a wish to see all UK citizens better off with opportunities for all.Loony, lefty, liberals are normally in favour of equality by definition.I agree that many factors including lack of social mobility fostered by successive governments, austerity etc all contributed to the disenfranchisement and disadvantage which led to the misdirected protest in the X factor style referendum. I also agree that these contributory factors will ironically be magnified given the likelihood of a hard Brexit and erosion of the annual £220 billion exports in goods and services to the EU.

However as the government seems hell bent on its destructive path it is worth at least debating Charles Goerens's suggestion of EU associate individual membership (including FOM) for those UK citizens who want it? I don't agree the Brexit-bound government would necessarily frustrate it. I think another member state, e.g. France could try to though! To explain by analogy, say the EU voted to offer associate membership rights to say Australia ( like including them in Eurovision!) then the Australian government would struggle to stop citizens accepting that surely?
I know the proposal is only a splash in the ocean as it only deals with individual rights, and doesn't aim to address the bigger picture of trade or defence etc.However I still think supporting and following this thoughtful inclusive MEP ,at least it shows strength of feeling from the forgotten 48%...

Surely employers can't discriminate on basis of birth place.

Saying that you've only got a UK passport is akin to saying you were born in bumfuck nowhere I can't employ you.

Cranky
of course employers would discriminate on holding a British passport vs an EU passport if there is any trade with or possible travel to the EU. Given the choice you would opt for the person who can travel/work without visa requirements.
I still can't quite believe mollies post earlier. The opportunity to live and work in Europe is/was open to all, people voting for Brexit just removed a good deal of equality and opportunity!

I am so saddened that the 'right on' liberal lefties are so vociferous about their rights to travel work and live in Europe that they are prepared to throw the rest of the |UK (who will never have any such opportunities) on the scrap heap.

But we are supposed to just accept being stripped of those rights by Brexiters?

All this would do is allow those of us who want to be EU citizens to remain as EU citizens.

As for those 'not having the opportunity' - I know of people who have gone to Spain for a 2 week holiday and decided to stay for 6 months working in bars or handing out leaflets.

Affording 2 weeks in Spain is, for some, beyond budget but it certainly isn't some elite.

UK MPs are saying things about letting non UK EU citizens keep the rights they have to live and work, I have been a bit, 'what about me?' because it seemed UK born citizens would have fewer rights than non UK born, which just seems wrong.

Cranky employers discriminating on the basis of place of birth was the whole point of the exercise for many Leave voters. Control of immigration, remember?

But of course that works both ways.

I am so saddened that the 'right on' liberal lefties are so vociferous about their rights to travel work and live in Europe that they are prepared to throw the rest of the |UK (who will never have any such opportunities) on the scrap heap
Why does it matter to you if people have the chance to keep rights that you had no interest in having? You will still have your 350 million and sovereignty. And yes to the poster above who said about people who spend 6 months having the times of their lives handing out leaflets. I came to Italy with £100 in my pocket, no family money to back me and am still here years later (no benefits claimed...). The only people post hard Brexit who will be able to do this will be those with money to satisfy visa requirements. So those less well off will be directly discriminated against if they have the same desire I had to experience a different country and culture and learn another language properly. You seem to be representative of a few people I know back in the U.K. who seem to see my choice to live elsewhere as a slight on them and their choices and the U.K. in general. Whereas in reality I have spent not one second judging their life choices and where they live and love the country I am from as well as the country where I live in the same way as it is possible to love more than 1 child. Not have I ever passed comment or bigged up what I have done as I genuinely don't see it as being better than what they do and where they live. It's just right for me as much as where they are is right for them.
Another point - this "lefty liberal" rhetoric really doesn't hold water. I could be described as such but I have never known -in decades of following political events - one single issue that has united left and right more than this in the case of both Leave and Remain voters. I suddenly find myself in total agreement with people I have passionately debated with since early Thatcher. Agreeing with Osborne (on this issue only...) who I have always loathed while being in total disagreement with people like Kate Hooey who I have always admired
For what it's worth I can't see this happening re FOM hence am personally applying for dual citizenship as well as marrying finally my long term Italian dp. And getting my DS his British passport finally as well as his Italian one. If it's good enough for Farage's kids...

It's not about discriminating on the basis of birthplace anyway. All members of my immediate family either currently hold or can acquire at least one other EU citizenship. Every one of us was born in the UK.

I wouldn't expect mollie to be back btw. But her post does form part of quite an informative set of responses on MN from Leavers unhappy at the idea of UK citizens potentially being able to retain EU FOM rights. Either through dual citizenship or the amendment. One detects, amidst the cant and failure to muster up even one passable argument against it, a certain sense of panic that perhaps some of us won't be forced to help clean up the large turd that was crimped out in June after all. I distinguish MN from Leave as a whole here btw, as we know that there are Leavers who support FOM and want an EEA setup. But the ones on here have been quite perversely informative to read on the subject.

Re Mollie's ridiculous post, to be offended by half the population's unwillingness to give up rights, acquired by birth for many, because of their whim and the massive fuckup that Brexit is proving to be, is plain silly. Mop up the fake tears Molly you can always frame your blue passport and never use it again, it's up to you, but many others actually love the FoM they've enjoyed up to now...

On a different thread I was called selfish for wanting to retain FOM for my children to have the opportunity work and travel in Europe. By Mollie123. Apparently because not everyone can afford to do this then nobody be should be able to do it.

Surely employers can't discriminate on basis of birth place.

They're not. They are starting to (in some areas - research and education so far) make the ability of the candidates ability to travel in the EU post-Brexit a factor in deciding whether to employ someone.

Now a perfectly valid argument against that (although there's nothing practically that can stop it) is that it's all an over-reaction, and UK citizens will be able to travel/study/work/stay as before.

Unfortunately the unwillingness of team Brexit to "show their hand" plus the rhetoric of "hard Brexit" means nobody knows what will happen. So there's a lot of bet hedging going on.

I know at least one person who voted to leave who didn't understand that FOM was actually bound up with the UKs EU membership. They thought it "just happened". Which suggests that some leavers didn't fully comprehend what they were potentially throwing away.

And of course informal, it's not necessarily any more expensive to use one's EU rights anyway. I realise the Goerens proposal would attract a fee and it would be higher than the cost of a British passport (though not necessarily than the cost of a British passport plus a visa). But take the example of British citizens who also hold Irish citizenship without the need to pay a fee to register. That group numbers in the millions. An Irish passport is cheaper than a British one. If you're cost conscious, you'll be going for the Irish. As my low income, Brexit voting but FOM supporting cousin did the other week!

The cost of an Irish passport relative to UK one has come down a lot - it used to be way more expensive than a UK passport. Hence I didn't apply for one when I could have done.

Sure, but going forward, it's cheaper. For millions of UK citizens. Sort of gives the lie to the idea that retaining your FOM rights is economically exclusionary!